going roller frames... M3 vs MZX

[Ryan]

Its late or early depending, but I gave mostly ez frames and a few m3 frames (3 to be exact) and I like my ez frames better. They hold/have much better tension than a static. My only gripe is not being able to tension them that little bit extra, but in fairness I haven't touched my m3s since I've stretched them. My personal opinion is that you will use up the mesh before it needs to be retensioned. This is personal preference and comes from a very small shop, so if you are spinning through screens rapidly, I can't testify to the longevity, but I've been happy so far and highly doubt I'll change down the road.

[farmboygraphics]

Frames are roughly 50 a piece
Tool is 200
panels about $20
So for 6 frames, tool, panels= about $620

You're correct, depending on which tool you purchase. One is $200 and the other $600. I went high. In all their videos they're using the more expensive tool to stretch. Any who, the price is the price and I guess the reason I posted was just the sticker shock of getting started with the system. That's not to say I'd wouldn't make the purchase down the road.

[shurloc]

The Shurloc's look great, but to get started with the E-Z System and just 6 frames with mesh (S Mesh at 180) would set you back a grand, plus shipping, if I'm adding every thing right. For the same mesh (S Mesh at 180) I could pick up 30 statics from River City. I know the Shurloc's would be the way to go in the long run, but ouch.

Whoa... The EZ System is not $1k to get started with... You've got $200 for the tensioning tool, $270 for 6 frames and $120 for 6 panels (average) so you'd be looking at $590... Then I could go 10% off on that one... So your cost would be $530 ish... Sound like a deal? If you want to try one out, email ron@shurloc.com and I'll get one off to you.

[DCSP John]

We switched over to Shur Loc a few years back.
The start up cost for the tensioning tool is nominal..

Tons of thin thread options available for panels. The new thinner frames are killer,
and hold great tension with next to no side frame bowing.

Anyways - the Shur Loc system is super versatile. Thumbs up.
Certainly makes life around here easier. Go for it.

John

[Shanarchy]

We switched over to Shur Loc a few years back.
The start up cost for the tensioning tool is nominal..

Tons of thin thread options available for panels. The new thinner frames are killer,
and hold great tension with next to no side frame bowing.

Anyways - the Shur Loc system is super versatile. Thumbs up.
Certainly makes life around here easier. Go for it.

John

Did you switch from Newmans or statics?

[DCSP John]

We were 50/50 between MZX and statics.

I contemplated the jump to M3 across the board, but the lead
time to land frames here was really long.. weeks and weeks long.
and.. landing a roller master was a whole other story.

The guys at Shur Loc are always super friendly and usually get product out
the door in a day or so. We keep ordering new screens in groups of 10-20, and
keep on stock a bunch of panel options. A new screen can be stretched in minutes.

John

[Parker 1]

I prefer the MZX over the M3. We only tension up to 35N, and with the thinner threads (225s & 330s) hover around 25N +/-2.  IMO the sweat spot is larger with the MZX which helps when printing designs 15"x21" using 23x31" frames. 

I am curious how long the EZ frames hold there tension?  We currently have a hand full of frames that hold 32-35N that have been in rotation for 2+years being re-tensioned 2-3 times.  With EZ frames the way I understand it, can not be re-tensioned.  Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Chris

[Shanarchy]

John,

We use MZX's. How do you find they compare as for pro's and con's.

My biggest question/concern would be what Chris said. How does the re-tensioning work on them? Can they be re-tensioned?

[DCSP John]

Well, the biggest thing about the Shur Loc are that they basically maintenance free once stretched.
The thinner ones that we have been getting are pre-assembled. No bolts needed.

We never had a roller master table, so tensioning MZX screens was a hassle. Hard
to keep the frames from becoming racked, and harder to use the torque wrench and other tensioning wrench.

I have some work hardened Shur Loc from 2 years ago that, when stretched initially were at like 40 N.
Now they have settled at around 25-30 N. I don't need screens any tighter than that.

For the S - Mesh - just about every screen in our line up is holding steady at 25 N.

Honestly, we get such long life out of our panels, that if for any reason they need replacing... well
its just easier to replace. Never had the need to re-tension the Shur Loc panels once they have been seated
to the frame..

John

[tonypep]

Some statements on this post that; while I know this to be true for so many shops, still puzzle me. Retensionable frames are sold on just that fact: work harden and retension. Yet so many do not, ie whats the point? Don't take this wrong; I've run shops with/without/and both. Just don't have a preference.

[Shanarchy]

John, what is the initial tension on the S mesh frames? And what do you find them dropping down to?

Also, would it be safe to assume that some screens in your rotation could be 40N and others at 25N?

So the Shur-loc frames are not retensionable? Would this put them more in line with a static that you can re-mesh yourself instead of sending them out to be done?


Tony, I think people like the idea of having the "right tools" in their shop, but (some) do not like the idea of doing the "work" involved.

[jsheridan]

Retensionable frames are sold on just that fact: work harden and retension. Yet so many do not, ie whats the point?

This is why Tony.. they never buy the correct tools for the system, and then complain about the system being to difficult to use.

We never had a roller master table, so tensioning  screens was a hassle. Hard
to keep the frames from becoming racked, and harder to use the torque wrench and other tensioning wrench.

[ScreenFoo]

^^For once, I agree with you John, but there are also plenty of people who buy the correct tools and don't use them. 

I'd say 95% of the printers on here (read:  5 or less employees) would be better served by a good supply house remeshing statics than *any* reten system... whether or not you can actually retension multiple times, or match tensions.

[shurloc]

Just to clarify...

First, the EZ's are retensionable using our retensioning bars (sold in sets for about $15)... We just have more people like John who have just decided to beat the mesh into the ground and then replace it rather than bringing them back up. The bars work well and switch out in about 20 seconds per side.

Second, as far as the correct tools go for rollers, the other John has it right. Get the right tools. That doesn't mean spending a fortune to do it. You can snag the Accelerator X which will stretch 23x31's for $399 (takes about a minute or two to install a panel, tension and lock up) which is quite a discount from a Roller Master. The X also doesn't require any power or air to run - eliminating that expense from the mix as well. The X also holds the frame completely flat, which means almost zero racking and the physical stop pins hold the wrenches in place while you tighten the bolts which further stabilizes the frame.

As far as the initial tensions go, I can get info from David on what they are designed to go to and where they should settle at. Saying "what does an S mesh go to" is like saying every frame should be set to 45N. Murakami designates a tension for each mesh count and we design around that. For example, the 80/71 maxes at 25N and will settle in the low 20's. You're not supposed to bring that back to the max or it will end up breaking on retensioning. The 225/40 maxes at 29N and should settle in the mid 20's.

Something we've seen from internal testing is that as the manufacturers have changed production methods, the data regarding their products is not updated well. Sefar is a great example here as the originally had their PECAP mesh tensioned much differently than their PET1500. They used to give a broad range of 30-48N with the PECAP mesh, but the PET1500 uses a recommended 38N mark for tensioning. Their 110/80 is no different as they used to recommend a range from 32-51N and now recommend just 44N. This is to keep the user from retensioning the mesh so heavily that it breaks down too quickly.

Like I said above, if anyone wants to get some information on the tensions for the EZ frames, I'd be happy to get our testing data over to you. Just shoot me an Email with frame size, mesh counts and manufacturer and I'd be happy to get that to you.

Thanks!
Ron

[Itsa Little CrOoked]

Ron,  I read something about Hix Retens that made me curious.  Did you guys buy that product line from Hix?

If so,  are they still available? (They seem pretty simple to me. But Hix doesn't sell them anymore. They were just not popular enough.)