Author Topic: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking  (Read 9754 times)

Offline Racer Tees

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2014, 11:10:37 PM »
I hate to be the bad guy here but if your printing on a manual you got to rotate anyway...you might find flashing each color might be best and I don't think it will kill your speed that much if any.  Once you get moving your pallets want be that hot, you would be very surprise at how printers flash every color, they might not admit it but it happens.

darryl

1 Flash/2 Rotations OR 4 Flashes/5 Rotations

I may have only been printing in house for 4 months, but I can surely say that flashing once and printing WOW will be twice as efficient as flashing between every color.  I'll ship the job out the door flashing between every color, but I would like to learn to do the job more efficiently.

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Offline mimosatexas

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 05:42:58 AM »
How are your rotations changing so much based on flashing vs no flashing?  I rotate my platens one full rotation before I rotate my screens regardless of the print.  Even if you are printing top colors wet on wet, you will be flashing your base, so the only way you would change rotations would be not rotating the platens after the fourth print for each color, which would save you at most a bit over a single rotation of the platens in total during a 5 color job with a base (1/4 rotation per top color for 1 1/4 rotations of the platens after the base is flashed).  That may seem substantially more efficient, but you are still rotating your screens during that fourth shirt, and you can rotate both at the same time in essentially the same amount of time, meaning you aren't actually saving any time by doing it that way.  If you are rotating your platens only twice in total (once during the flash, and 1/4 per shirt then printing all top colors one shirt at a time), it means you are rotating screens a ton more times than necessary which is far less efficient than doing all of a single color at a time on all shirts, then moving to the next color.  I have done time tests on this, and in every scenario it is much faster to rotate shirts printing a single color at a time than it is to print multiple colors per shirt then rotate shirts.  This makes the flash vs no flash point moot. 

Moving the platens more is faster/better than moving the screens more for a lot of reasons. First, you are putting sideways pressure on your screens fewer times during a run, which lowers the probability of moving one out of registration.  Second, it allows you to use one hand to hold the screen slightly up and one to turn the platens in a method that minimizes the up and down motion of your screen and speeds up the time between print strokes.  Third, you are trying to get the screens lined up to the registration gate for every print of every color instead of just the first print of each, which inevitably will cumulatively take longer than having those screens already in place vertically.  Fourth, the rhythm of your process doesn't change depending on the number of colors or type of ink etc. which means you simply get better at it in the long term due to muscle memory and the ability to tweak the fine movements of the process.  This last one has been huge for me, and I have really seen it come into play recently as my jobs have gotten larger and more complex.

I only do wet on wet when it aids in the blending of the colors for art reasons, or when doing waterbased prints where I simply don't even have the flash turned on.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 05:47:40 AM by mimosatexas »

Offline Denis Kolar

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 08:03:23 AM »
How are your rotations changing so much based on flashing vs no flashing?  I rotate my platens one full rotation before I rotate my screens regardless of the print.  Even if you are printing top colors wet on wet, you will be flashing your base, so the only way you would change rotations would be not rotating the platens after the fourth print for each color, which would save you at most a bit over a single rotation of the platens in total during a 5 color job with a base (1/4 rotation per top color for 1 1/4 rotations of the platens after the base is flashed).  That may seem substantially more efficient, but you are still rotating your screens during that fourth shirt, and you can rotate both at the same time in essentially the same amount of time, meaning you aren't actually saving any time by doing it that way.  If you are rotating your platens only twice in total (once during the flash, and 1/4 per shirt then printing all top colors one shirt at a time), it means you are rotating screens a ton more times than necessary which is far less efficient than doing all of a single color at a time on all shirts, then moving to the next color.  I have done time tests on this, and in every scenario it is much faster to rotate shirts printing a single color at a time than it is to print multiple colors per shirt then rotate shirts.  This makes the flash vs no flash point moot. 

Moving the platens more is faster/better than moving the screens more for a lot of reasons. First, you are putting sideways pressure on your screens fewer times during a run, which lowers the probability of moving one out of registration.  Second, it allows you to use one hand to hold the screen slightly up and one to turn the platens in a method that minimizes the up and down motion of your screen and speeds up the time between print strokes.  Third, you are trying to get the screens lined up to the registration gate for every print of every color instead of just the first print of each, which inevitably will cumulatively take longer than having those screens already in place vertically.  Fourth, the rhythm of your process doesn't change depending on the number of colors or type of ink etc. which means you simply get better at it in the long term due to muscle memory and the ability to tweak the fine movements of the process.  This last one has been huge for me, and I have really seen it come into play recently as my jobs have gotten larger and more complex.

I only do wet on wet when it aids in the blending of the colors for art reasons, or when doing waterbased prints where I simply don't even have the flash turned on.

I'll second this. You are not adding any extra time if flashing between every color on manual.
Print one color at the time, move the pallets at all time, colors only after you printed all the shirts with a previous color. Print all white underbases, print second color on all, move to the third color, print third on all, move to the fourth color, ....... and so on.
If the colors are WOW compatible, you should not be doing this. If not, still better that struggle with a blurry prints.

Offline alan802

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 09:33:09 AM »
The large open areas you're trying to print WOW aren't doing you any favors, and everyone has already mentioned the most important factors but there are several causes to buildup.  The biggest one is the ink itself.  I've been told so many times that an ink was WOW compatible, especially the brands that aren't named Rutland, Wilflex, QCM, One Stroke, WM Plastics and a few others, but the inks that are made and then rebadged have proven in my experience to be much less WOW compatible than the major players.  Second issue which Danny mentioned is HEAT.  It's your enemy in WOW printing.  The third is screen tension, the fourth is mesh count, and if you have all those ducks in a row, you're good to go.
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Offline tonypep

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 09:58:58 AM »
You know how I'd do it! Another reason we hate plastisol.

Offline 3Deep

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 11:26:02 AM »
Like I said once you get going flashing between every color you'll be just as fast, I've had to do that using my auto...sometimes things just want work right and I have to band-aid it LOL.
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Offline Racer Tees

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 11:29:52 AM »
I've already sent this one out band-aided, but I'd like to not have to band-aid it in the future.

Offline Racer Tees

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 11:53:32 AM »
The large open areas you're trying to print WOW aren't doing you any favors, and everyone has already mentioned the most important factors but there are several causes to buildup.  The biggest one is the ink itself.  I've been told so many times that an ink was WOW compatible, especially the brands that aren't named Rutland, Wilflex, QCM, One Stroke, WM Plastics and a few others, but the inks that are made and then rebadged have proven in my experience to be much less WOW compatible than the major players.  Second issue which Danny mentioned is HEAT.  It's your enemy in WOW printing.  The third is screen tension, the fourth is mesh count, and if you have all those ducks in a row, you're good to go.
I'm starting to think it's a HEAT issue.  The print runs perfect on white without any heat on the platen.

1. Should I be halftoning the underbase to help with the heat issue?

2. Will adding the rubber top from action help with the heat soak in the aluminum platen?


Offline tonypep

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 11:55:39 AM »
Turn off that flash ;)

Offline blue moon

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2014, 12:02:20 PM »
FYI, Tony is saying you should switch to discharge. It is not an option for everybody or every job. . .

I am more inclined to think that you are not flashing enough. How long are you flashing, what's the distance to the flash and what is the platen temp?

pierre
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Offline Racer Tees

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2014, 12:08:48 PM »
I am more inclined to think that you are not flashing enough. How long are you flashing, what's the distance to the flash and what is the platen temp?
I run a 15 second flash normally.  Tried this one at 15,20,25,30 and longer.  Print acts the same every time.  15 gets us just past tacky.

I'll put the temp gun on the platen itself here after a while.

Offline blue moon

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2014, 12:11:05 PM »
what mesh count for the top colors?

pierre
Yes, we've won our share of awards, and yes, I've tested stuff and read the scientific papers, but ultimately take everything I say with more than just a grain of salt! So if you are looking for trouble, just do as I say or even better, do something I said years ago!

Offline Racer Tees

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2014, 12:14:50 PM »
160 base. 305 top colors

Offline tonypep

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2014, 12:17:44 PM »
Top coat mesh count is a bit high for vector

Offline Racer Tees

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Re: Wet-on-Wet Screens Sticking
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2014, 12:23:21 PM »
What would be your mesh recommendation?