Fibrillation frustration

[ebscreen]

Yep, what John said.

[Homer]

this guy needs to eat some humble pie and learn from you and your crew. If everyone else can print well with your equipment, the only variable here is him. If he's been pulling prints like this off of presses for 22 years, geessus....


he has two options if it were me - shut your mouth and learn to do it right, or keep doing it this way but at somebody else's shop.

[TCT]

Aside from the print, you have a problem with that employee. 22, 33 or 44 years experience doesn't mean crap! What if it was 22 years of BAD experience, which is VERY possible in this industry... If your other employees can pull off a good print and he can't, sounds like he needs to unload for them and shadow them and get some new good experience...

I know it is much easier for me to type this than it is for you to implement or enforce it.

Just my .02

[vwyob]

Again, many thanks.
We are going to have a chat with him. There is a young lad here on the sportsman pulling off some very nice work recently and its all because he is absorbing knowledge taken from this forum.

You are correct that my background is not in screen print. I am from a litho print background; brochures, magazines etc (dare i say it, over 25 years)...  but I know when someone is taking me for a fool.
He is not a nasty POS just stuck in his ways, as I said before a decent guy. I'm going to let the dust settle and then sit down with him to read your replies.

Cheers

[Screened Gear]

I am pulling my hair out with one of the guys here. He is saying this is the best print that he can pull from the e-type. We have purchased the action engineering roller and twin head squeegee (thanks guys...excellent service and product) and the other press ops have had good success with them. In fact things, on the whole, are going much better than before with most of the team on board now, regarding our goals of improving quality. But this guy keeps trying to (pardon the expression) 'pull the wool over my eyes' and digs his heels in, and in hard.
Would you be good enough to look at the pics attached. The print is fibrillated badly and, I suspect, overcooked. When the mesh does not clear of ink, his first move is to drive the squeegee further down and then whack up the air pressure in the head. No matter what we tell him. I'm at the point where i'm questioning what I am trying to tell him. He has 22 years behind him and is as stubborn as a mule (annoying because he is actually a nice guy).
Have a look and tell me whats wrong with the print and how to rectify please. He will be reading this with me should I get any replies.

Many thanks.

I have an e-type and I have never printed like that. It looks really funny. What squeegees are you using? On a MHM you have to use softer squeegees because your printing on hard (non rubber topped) pallets. In fact I learned a ton from trying to use a 50 duro squeegee. It gives alot of feed back on how hard you are printing. If your too hard (to much air pressure) that squeegee will just bend over.

Here is some settings that I use for white .

Squeegee 65/90/65 sometimes 55/90/55 but for whites I find them too soft (waterbase I use softer singles or special squeegees)
air pressure set to 2-4 bars (4 when getting started and drop it down as the ink gets worked up)
Flood speed  as fast as you can ( this helps keep the ink flowing well. I have my floods set to about 5 when getting started and then up to 10 after the ink is flowing. I also soft flood, fast soft flood)
Print speed 3-8 is normal for white, top colors I can run them full speed once the inks are worked up.
Flood angle i use wings so they are set to zero, If I use a standard I like to have it on 3
Squeegee angle 3-6 depending on detail
off contact usually very low on off contact. 1/32 to 1/8th
Cylinder Height This is a hard one. Since each press is set different. I use this for fine tuning. If your pressure is doing ok but you want just a little more ink laydown you can adjust the height up just a little. Setting this part of the press right will make your life much easier. There is settings from -5, 0 then up to +5. My press is set so +5 is just touching the pallet or maybe even a little off the pallet (for fleece and thicker items.) When printing with ink that is flowing well I am in the positive 3 to 5 numbers.
tension all my screens in the shop are 25n to 30n

Your goal is always print softer and faster.

Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. Learn your press with basic stuff. Get a feel for what your press needs when something is going wrong. You do this and you can print any ink with any combination of variables. After that you can use these items to even further your skills and even further your ability to use your press. They are good tools and will improve your prints. Just spend some time dialing in your press and lean how to control it.

Good luck. It took me a long time before I could print a perfect white print on my press. Now I can do it every time.

[vwyob]

Jon I am SO grateful for the info. Always great to hear from e-type owners in particular.

This morning I have a chat with him and jumped on the machine to go back to the fundamentals that you guys have kindly given. We have started to make some progress. Although not a perfect print, it is a lot better than we had yesterday. He has been receptive and absorbed a fair bit of information. Lets hope its the first step in the right direction. No doubt I shall continue to plague you with questions in the 'Newbie" section, please bear with me. I find the whole process fascinating and I am hell bent on taking things to a much higher level eventually. We'll get there. Its just a case of when.
This is what he pulled off this morning.

[mimosatexas]

Improved, but still not there.  It still looks like the ink is having mat down issues (needs to be stirred/heated up or have variables adjusted on the press) and is being printed too hard.

I know you are doing jobs and they need to get out the door and make you money, but I think it would be worth it in the long run to step away from production and spend a day testing.  The job you posted originally is a good test due to the simplicity and the fact that it has white and a color that highlights any issues.  Go wild on your variables, but adjust one at a time.  Use jon's post as a starting point.

[vwyob]

I agree with you completely. Ironically I have managed to get him in over this coming weekend to do just this.

A part of the problem is the mesh clearing. They all refer to the cylinder or squeegee height as the pressure i.e " the screen won't clear so we apply more pressure" But what they are doing is lowering the squeegee via the cylinders. I was under the impression that the squeegee height/drop is a different entity. The 'pressure' is actually the air pressure with its knob and gauge on the side of any given head? These are set at 6 on all heads. Is this the case? Similar to the sportsman, with its air pressure on the front of the heads, again with gauge. I thought that the cylinders dictated the height or drop of the squeegee and the air pressure was how much force is applied to keep it in that lowest position during the print stroke. If you guys could clarify that would be great please.
If this is actually the case, then why is the air pressure adjustable? Surely you would just need a constant and strong enough pressure to ensure the squeegee reaches its lowest point regardless of adverse resistance i.e viscosity of ink or mesh tension. Again any guidance is gratefully received.
I have tried to explain to him that clearing the mesh is not just lowering the squeegee, all that achieves is driving the ink further into the garment. Its like a quick yet counter intuitive fix. Yes it clears the mesh but the print is crap. I am going to send of a batch of screens for re-meshing at a higher tension. His off contact today on the white is 6mm. Usually its at 4mm.

[tonypep]

I do not miss plastisol

[vwyob]

First smile I've had today lol. Cheers buddy 

[jvanick]

my understanding with the stroke length adjustments is that IF you're using your pressure control correctly, you want your stroke stops to be adjusted to the point that they're not affecting the length of the chop at all.

We were running a job yesterday with approx 25 psi with Wilflex Quick White and getting great prints with great opacity.  (160 Smesh, 70/90/70 squeegee, fast print stroke (no idea really how fast or what # as it's an all air press).  Our print chopper stops are set basically all the way at the top.

[jsheridan]

Another thing. Stay away from smoothing screens, rollers, double squeegees, beveled squeegees, hard flooding, s-mesh, super high tension screens and high EOM emulsion. All these are band aids for something your not doing right. L

Have to strongly disagree with this.

They are all tools of the trade that when used correctly, compliment what you're doing right.

[screenprintguy]

Crazy that this thread popped up. We hadn't had any issues like this for a long time. Last night, little 30 peice job, verrrrrrry mysteriously had 6 shirts mid job come out of the dryer all fibb'd up. Crazy that only 6 mid way, the only thing I can think is that they were just some fuzzy shirts, but man I hate the way that looks and since it was a rush and we didn't have enough replacements for those 6, we tossed them all on the heat press, that makes them all look nice of course, but weird stuff man!!! Funny thing also the design was a pink penguin so the fuzzy body of the penguin had us crackin up. Good thing it was a small order and the heat press worked it out. I can only imagine, bigger press, extra flash near the end with a roller squeegee and teflon bottom'd screen would give that same satin finish. Any of you guys doing that technique?

[kirkage]

Could you have dropped the mesh count down on the underbase? Seems like it would be easier to clear the mesh.

[Screened Gear]

Cylinders height is not pressure but the two do work together in some way. Think about the press as a very strong employee. You need to get that employee to use a soft touch. The press goes from zero to 10 bars on the air pressure per head. 6 bars is like 90 pounds of pressure. That is way to much. No normal employee can print with that much pressure. I never go over 4 bars. Most of the time I'm in the 2-3 range. Clearing the screen is the goal. If your using to much pressure the other adjustments, squeegee angle, squeegee duro, print speed will do nothing. The inks flow is the first thing to get right. If the ink is thick and sticky it will never clear the screen. Mixing the ink helps but getting heat into the ink does better. A warm ink will flow well after just a few print stokes. Speed of the print is over looked at most shops. Everyone thinks white ink needs to be printed slow and hard. Speed will help with clearing the screen. You can't speed up until the ink is flowing well. Getting all the setting right takes time but once you do the press will print better and be eisier to use.

That new print is night and day to the first one. Keep at it you will get it