Equipment I Saw at ISS FT. Worth

[alan802]

I guess I will lump everything here together and talk about my opinions and thoughts on the various equipment I saw at the show.  I'll take this in chronological order and it's been a few days but things are still rather fresh in my mind.  I won't go into the finer details but feel free to ask me anything.  I'll go over the broad points of what I saw and my thoughts/opinions as a whole.  There is just too much to go over if I went into much detail about each feature of each press that I saw, this thread will be long enough and more than enough to put some to sleep. 

I walked into the show and immediately saw the SPSI signage and there was nobody but Gavin and Robert at the MHM X-type at that time so I jumped at the chance to introduce myself and get a detailed tour of the press.  First thoughts, it's everything I've seen in videos and Gavin knows those machines very well and is the best one to talk to about the MHM's.  We went over every feature of the press, and we got to the main control panel and it was there I came to the conclusion that no matter what else I saw at the show, I doubt anything would be as refined as the MHM's operating system.  I also got a chance to check out the pallet deflection (as I did with every auto I saw at the show) and there was NO DEFLECTION, as in ZERO.  I really liked the flash integration and sensor system so that you can virtually run thousands of pieces and never have to stop to change flash times or worry about under-flashing/over-flashing and you don't have to adjust anything yourself unless you wanted to.  The MSI flashes were very well made.  I won't go into all the little details on the machine because there are lots of videos here that show them better than I can describe, but the MHM as a machine is the total package.  It was so fast, and silent, and the only real complaint I've heard about the MHM was no longer a concern with the pallet deflection.  The press is very clean and compact, there is no wasted space and no parts or wires hanging on or around the press.  When I say clean, it's the Euro type look where most of the "guts" of the machine are tucked away and covered up.  It's lightweight compared to the Workshorse and M&R but it doesn't seem light when you compare it to the other autos that I consider lightweight, I won't mention names.  So the MHM X-type is about as close to a perfect mid-level, mid-range auto as I've ever seen.  I'll try to compare it to others as I write this novel.

The second press on my tour was the Anatol Volt.  The guys working the booth were busy talking to customers but I did watch the press cycle for 4-5 minutes and tested the pallet deflection, observed all the moving parts and listened to it closely.  The Aries system is very cool, it's very easy to read and work your way through it, very user friendly in my opinion.  Maybe a little too "Iphone" with it's icons and overall look but I think they did a great job with developing that system.  Now, I preface my next comments with this:  None of the autos at these shows should be judged poorly if they aren't as smooth as you think they should be because they are being setup in places and by people who aren't necessarily going to make things perfect (although I think they should) and if a press isn't running like a top then it doesn't mean there is something wrong with the press.  It was only slightly rough on a few of the pallet carousel raises telling me it wasn't dialed in with the registration gates as it could be.  And to be clear:  THIS IS AN ENTRY LEVEL PRESS so the lack of print head controls is not a knock on it, but I was surprised there wasn't at least a small membrane pad with a few controls on it.  But with the Aries on board you have a ton of control at the main panel so it's not a deal breaker.  I'm not the biggest fan of the servo system that Anatol uses but it's obviously more of personal preference and I'm used to the RPM's pin driven type and I don't like the friction that I see with the capture fork and cams but if it were a problem then it wouldn't be used by more than 1 auto manufacturer.  I wanted to go back to the Anatol booth when the guys weren't busy and get a better view of the press but I wasn't able to and ran out of time.  My thoughts and opinions on this press were incomplete but maybe one day I'll get a chance to go over any of their machines with a fine tooth comb.

Next press on my tour was the Sabre.  I wrote a good bit about it on Gilligan's thread and I'll copy/paste that here then add more to it:  "The operating systems I saw yesterday were impressive, and I'd say the Sabre is right up there in the top 2, along with the MHM, and the G3 is so functional it's hard to knock points off because its not as sleek and pretty as the Sabre, MHM and Anatol Aries.  There were a few things on the Sabre that I thought were very unique and nobody else had done.  Others have the maintenance schedules on there but then having a video there to show exactly how/where to do the maintenance?  Wow, that's cool.  The Sabre's ability to integrate with shop software and their portal system was awesome too.  Others have the same type of function or ability to tap into other networks/software but I didn't think anyone has that feature as well thought out as the Sabre does.  It's close in that department, with the MHM tablet and the new stuff that is coming/already here with M&R but for a press with the price point of the Sabre?  I'm shaking my head.  And watch the hell out when/IF the Falcon gets this upgrade.  They are also already looking at upgrading some of the less noticeable components of the Sabre that won't necessarily enhance the functionality or appearance any but just knowing it's there will be nice but I won't go into that since there were parts of the conversations that were off the record so to speak.

The Sabre is more than a glorified, churched up Javelin in my opinion.  With the operating system and no more V-squeegee the Sabre is, in my opinion, a much more qualified press for doing high end work.  The 2 things I didn't like were the print carriage rail system and the front screen holders.  It depends on the person, some might like to have the front screen holder to be adjustable but I'd prefer that to be static.  It flips up like the other Workhorse and M&R machines do which I've never been a fan of personally but it's more personal preference than anything because that way doesn't cause any real issues like I sometimes think it would.  But the way the Sabre accomplishes the flip and the adjustability are not to MY liking but that's just my personal opinion and others may love the feature.  I wish the print carriage rail was more like our RPM, the Sroque or M&R but time will tell if it will hold up to intense workloads and the engineers at Workhorse know more than I do about that sort of thing so if I were a betting man I would bet on them and against me.   

So after having some questions on the robustness of the Sabre and if it was stout enough to handle a higher volume shop...those were answered with a "yes it is".  The press isn't as visually pleasing to look at compared to the MHM and Sroque but as I talk about the machines I saw and their aesthetics, it comes down more to personal preference than production capabilities.  Some machines are "purdy" some are not, and some are left to the eye of the beholder.

After I left the Sabre I made a straight line to the GSG booth and the new Gauntlet 3.  Now, when I talk about a machine's beauty being left up to the eye of the beholder, the G3 falls into that category for me.  The MHM guys and Sroque shops will probably not like the G3 right from the start due to it's looks.  Let's be frank, there's A LOT going on and there is a lot of metal (pretty blue metal though) and for an auto newb, I can see some major intimidation happening and for those people that are used to the Euro styling of other autos it can be too much to look past.  I am used to looking at a press that is somewhat in between the MHM and the G3 and I'm on the fence on whether or not I like this.  I did talk to many about what they thought of the G3 and it was split and those who are used to the M&R's loved them, and those who prefer the MHM/Sroque were turned off by the G3.  Everything I said in the G3 thread of Eric's is true to my opinion.  It is a monster, it's seriously built for serious business.  I see where critics are coming from and for those who haven't seen one I'll try my best to describe it.  I think it's like comparing the Mercedes G-Class (MHM/Sroque) Wagon to the Hummer Alpha H1.  Both of those vehicles are very capable off-roaders but they get there in completely different styles.

When comparing the main control panel/operating system of the G3 to the Aries, Sabre and MHM I think personal preference is also going to play a role in whether you like it or not.  I prefer the MHM personally, but the G3 does everything the others do it just doesn't look quite as "cool" doing it.  There are a ton of little features that I won't bore everyone with but it's hard to believe all of this is now available.  The indexing system is very fast, I think it was a little bit faster than the MHM but not by a huge margin.  I've never been a fan of the turnbuckle micro systems that were on the Sabre and M&R but they have worked for many years and if they were that bad I doubt they would still be used like they are.  I love the individual print head off contact adjustment and print length is very easy and fast to adjust.  The print head supports were redesigned and one of the things I liked about the old Gauntlet was that they didn't have the head supports but I know their importance on some machines and it's not a deal breaker for me like I used to think they were.  The base of the G3 was massive but the covers were very easy to open and get into the guts and electrical components and you didn't need a screwdriver or wrench to get in there, it was tool-less.  The G3 is not as quiet as the MHM or Sroque due to the way the print heads move up and down but I would say the M&R is a lot more quiet than they used to be.  There isn't a lot of control at the print head compared to our current press but compared to the MHM and Sroque it's on par.  You can index from the print heads and half-index with the knob.  All one really needs to have control over at the heads is there. 

I think the G3 bridges that gap (huge gap in my opinion) between the Ch 3 and the Sporty very nicely.  I had made up my mind that if we went with an M&R for our next press that it would be the Ch 3-55 model but the G3 took over that position and I think aside from the overwhelming looks (good or bad depending on the person) this press is a big deal.  It fills the void the G2 left when it was discontinued and I think that just like the G2 has always been a very popular press with the printers in the states, the G3 will become the same.  I'd replace the RPM with this press in a heartbeat.  There are still a few things that I know I'd miss about the RPM and the G3 doesn't have a few little things I like but overall it would fit in nicely here at our shop and we wouldn't miss a beat and would increase our production capability with a G3. 

So finally we get to the Sroque You-M.  This press is not their entry level machine but it's not the Eco model that would compare with the G3-Ch3 and MHM X-type.  I think the YOU is in the range of the Sabre, Sporty, Stratus, etc.  This press is very comparable to the MHM the way it was engineered.  There was no pallet deflection, the pallets were the lightest of all the pallets I handled.  There wasn't any real weaknesses on the YOU that I saw and although it doesn't have many print head controls it has enough.  The main control panel was  nice, I thought it was somewhere between the MHM and G3 with it's looks but funtionally they are all 3 equal.  I wish the screen was bigger which I felt was the case with every press I saw at the show except the Anatol.  I wish they were all the size of the Aries.  I think I like the traditional squeegee and floodbar insertion of the M&R over the MHM and Sroque with the pull-pin system because I can install a sq on our press with one hand.  The micros were the best of the bunch in my opinion but really close to the MHM.  I think the registration system is a no brainer if you buy one of these machines.  The YOU had a geneva style indexing system which is not my favorite but as I've said a few times already, it's been around for many years and there has been billions of indexes performed with a geneva system so who am I to judge.  I like the principle of the self-leveling squeegee system used by the Sroque and MHM and if the press is calibrated, it works as advertised.  I also love the claims from the Sroque and MHM guys that the machine never has to be calibrated.  Once it's installed, that part is done and everything is parallel and level and another thought need not be put into it.  That would be so nice.  You can tell that everything is machined and the old explanations from our favorite mattress salesman about "stacking" and shims all all that BS doesn't apply to a press that was manufactured under strict tolerances like the Sroque looked to be.  I was told the Eco model is just a little bit better with regards to the individual components making up the press and that makes sense to keep the YOU in a specific price point.  I thought I remember someone telling me the indexing system on the Eco is different than the YOU, the print heads go up and down independently where on the YOU they all move up and down.  I really liked the YOU and can imagine I'd love the Eco and the guys at the Sroque booth are a unique group who are passionate about those machines and they have a lot to be proud of.  They are well deserving of a look for anyone looking at buying an automatic press. 

Overall thoughts and musings:  I was really impressed by almost every auto I spent time around.  Sure, there were little things here and there that I didn't like or thought were weak, but compared to what we had to choose from 5 years ago, and especially 8-10 years ago, we are so lucky now because there is more than just one or two autos worth owning. 

I guess if I had to pick a winner of biggest surprise of the show:The Sabre's operating system.

Best press if money was not in the equation:  Damn, X-type or G3.  I can't stress enough that although these machines are competitors going after the same buyers for the most part, they are as different as two comparable automatics can be.  The MHM was everything I thought it was and it had a lot of hype to live up to from me, it delivered.  I did have an idea as to what to expect with the G3 but I was still surprised by it.  The M&R guys will absolutely love the G3, they will bow down at the size 20 ass-kicking boots it has.  The majority of the MHM guys will not like the G3.  There is a lot to take in and without knowing the listed weight of any of the machines I looked at, I'd have to guess the G3 weighs 30% more than the next heaviest machine.  I could be wrong but just from the eye test, it looks like it ate one of it's competitors.

What would we buy for our 2nd auto?  I'm not trying to dodge this question like I'll be accused of, but honestly I don't know which press I would choose.  I know it will be down to the G3, X-type, Eco or RPM.  I hope the RPM guys can see what's going on around them and most of the press is as good as any mechanically, the operating system or main control panel needs updating and if they don't jump on board the touchscreen bandwagon, they'll get left behind. 

I did get a chance to look at 2 CTS machines and will start a new thread on that at another time.  I hope I didn't bore all of you and if anyone has specific questions or would like my opinion on something feel free to ask.  I'm not the most knowledgeable automatic guy out there but I feel like I do represent the average print shop fairly well and I've done a lot of research on this topic.  I can't wait for the next show I get to go to.  From now on I think I need to plan on taking 2 days to attend the show instead of 6 hours.

[sqslabs]

Great writeup! 

[GraphicDisorder]

Good stuff. 

[Sbrem]

You should write for the trades, Alan. Nice work, and unbiased to boot!

Steve

[Action1]

Great report Alan. Thank you for taking the time. I enjoyed that greatly.

[screenprintguy]

Yeah, bro, glad you got to go and see all of these, I know it's be killin ya! Thanks for the sweet detailed, non biased report!!

[Anatolhelp]

Alan

Thanks for the report.....I am sorry I didn't have time to meet you and spend time with you at the show.   I would like to extend an invitation to spend some time with you in Vegas next month if you plan on attending.
That way you can get a up close look at the Volt !

[3Deep]

I hadn't been to a show in years with that many different press's on the floor, guess I'm going to have to get off my butt and get to a show here soon.  Nice job Al!!!

darryl

[alan802]

It was without a doubt the best show I've ever been to but I'll preface that by saying I've only been to the ISS Ft. Worth shows and I think I've been to 6 of them now.

Alan

Thanks for the report.....I am sorry I didn't have time to meet you and spend time with you at the show.   I would like to extend an invitation to spend some time with you in Vegas next month if you plan on attending.
That way you can get a up close look at the Volt !

I didn't want to interrupt you with the husband/wife you were talking to because they seemed very interested in the machine and I was only gathering information for sharing purposes.  I doubt I will get to Vegas but I did bring it up to the owner and she needs to find a way to get to a show soon and was at least interested in the idea of going to Vegas.  I think there is actually a better than slim chance to get to the Vegas show so I'll make sure to stop by if I do.

[Gilligan]

I guess I will lump everything here together and talk about my opinions and thoughts on the various equipment I saw at the show.  I'll take this in chronological order and it's been a few days but things are still rather fresh in my mind.  I won't go into the finer details but feel free to ask me anything.  I'll go over the broad points of what I saw and my thoughts/opinions as a whole.  There is just too much to go over if I went into much detail about each feature of each press that I saw, this thread will be long enough and more than enough to put some to sleep.  ....

zzzz.... too late!

J/K, great write up.

Of course the show I don't go to is the one that has MHM and other big boy presses!

[zanegun08]

Great write up.  Thanks for the non bias opinion.

Pro's and Con's to all the presses out there.

I'm looking forward to your writeup on CTS.  Which units did you look at?  That's what I'm mainly in the market for.

[TCT]

Nice write up Alan! Knowing how extremely detailed orientated you are the write up probably holds a lot of value to people that read it that can't get out to shows! I am really wanting to check out the GT3, sounds like it is going to really kick up some dust in the upper level/mid-upper level "class" of presses. I am hoping it will be at SGIA otherwise I'll just wait till Long Beach.

It is kind of funny like you mentioned how S.Roque/MHM owners and M&R/RPM/anatol/TAS/Workhorse owners look at the other style press! First thought in your head is "well it nice, but why do the heads operate/not operate that way?"    Personally I don't know if I could go back to the M&R/RPM/anatol/TAS/Workhorse style, but if there was a press that made me sway it would be the CH3, so it will be interesting if the GT3 dose it for me also...

When you were talking with the S.Roque guys, did you by chance talk with Joao? He has become a very good friend of mine, and if you ask him I have taught him a LOT about how sarcastic and smart assed Americans can be! First 3 times he referred to me as "big"(he meant tall, I hope ) I gave him a guilt trip about calling me fat! He is a real good guy!

Not to bust your balls but more for the record if people use your write up for information, for a full size press(the bag/tag printer "Nano" excluded) the YOU is the entry level press for S.Roque. They had one step lower, the Amigia, but I am 95% sure they won't build one again.

You got to make it out to Long Beach for all 3 days! It will be overload for you!

[JJPrint]

Question, we have a Sportsman 10 color and we find our orders are getting smaller and smaller.  It seems that a couple of the other brands (Sroque & MHM) have a better system for getting screens on/off press and pallets switched out.  Would we really be saving time or are the apparent time savings not really there in real use?  Also the on the fly adjustments to registration seem better as well.

[screenprintguy]

Now, with all the dang videos that people take on their phones of useless garbage, has anyone thought to wip one out at these shows and grab some footage of yet to be seen gear on display? That would be nice for us that couldn't make it to an out of state show to see newly released stuff.

[jamrock]

Good review Alan.

I have never been to the Long Island show but I'm told it's the show to be for screenprinters. I usually attend the SGIA Expo in Vegas and last year in Orlando. SGIA always puts on a great show but the criticism by some is that the show in recent time seems to be paying more and more attention to the digital print market and less of the screen print. I still enjoy going and networking with everyone.

I look forward to your write up on CTS as I'm also exploring investing in that. I think the key players are EXILE (fromerly OYO), DOUTHITT and M&R.