Discharge Testing: Base, Agent, Pigment, Additives, Penetration

[Dochertyscott]

Yesterday was my first time printing with discharge inks and I'm pretty excited about the prospect of getting into it I a big way.

So I had a play with the DC white.
I started with a bunch of diff brand tees to test. Gildan 2000, 6400 & 86000 are ones you will know so I'll explain what happened to them.
The only supplier of DC in NZ  said no need for a premix DC as I can add concentrate white.
They supplied me DC base, DC agent and DC concentrate pigment.
DC WB is not a popular printing method here in NZ with less than 5% of print shops doing it. Some of the prints I have seen from these few are pretty poor and nothing like the results you lot are getting.
If I'm going to do it i would like to do well.

-Rutland Discharge Base WB0255
-Rutland Discharge Agent WB0259
-Concentrate White Dye

I set up a small pocket print on the manual rather than auto for ease of clean etc.

Test 1. DC base, 6% agent = natural charge and penetration. (pretty excited at this stage to see it happen)

Test 2 DC base 6% agent 10% white pigment = not bright or white enough. No huge change

Test 3 & 4. Same base and agent but 20 and 30% (max) pig = brighter but not hugely whiter and slight hand. Better on a military green, charcoal and orange

Test 5. DC base, 8% agent, 30% white pigment = better, brighter but still not great. (maxed out agent and pigment percentages which isn't ideal)

There were multiple other things that I tested such as the dryer settings, squeegee duro, pressure, snap, # of pulls, angle, speed etc. some which helped in ways...and lastly an extreme 9% agent 40% pigment.

Should I of tried less DC agent than 6% rather than going more? but the white got better with higher %)
I would have thought more agent, more charge, but by the sound of it agent can mess with the pigment right?)
Should I be adding water or additives to the mix for penetration/ soak?
The fibres (through an eye glass) as well as when pulled look well covered and there is some penetration from the other side.

I had better results on charcoal, orange and military green...(they all happen to be a slightly lighter fabric weight) Could the lighter fabric, therefore more penetration be the reasoning for this?
I had my drier heating ink at average 160-200 degrees for 80 seconds and put through at least twice probably more like 4 times to make sure of full charge. Can white discolour to bone in particular on black because of intense heat?

Am I expecting too much from this DC white? It's just not white or remotely close to passable as white IMO

Do I need a super white premix for straight DC white? no one here seems to talk of adding white pigment like I was recommended by my supplier for a straight white...?

At least if I try resolve the issues I have now it will set me in good stead for further testing with both white and colours.

Activator/Agent/pigments: How much is too much? What's the ideal % for bright whites, colours, and a good cure.

Penetration: Should the ink be soaking through more than I have to give better, consistent results.

 

Here a couple is a photos of the tests.
Top= G2000 Bottom= G86000
Right to Left: Test 1- 5
Close up of DC no pigment
Close up of DC 8%agent 30%white
Penetration from other side.

This is a pretty long-winded post but writing it is also helping me get my head around it all.
Any advice and opinions would be hugely appreciated before I go and get into some more testing.

[dirkdiggler]

premixed white, longer in the dryer.

[mimosatexas]

Premixed for sure. Add penetrant or water to really get it into the fibers. Activator perecentage can more or less be maxed on white with no effect. The agent only really eats reds. 6%should be more than enough though and adding more will leave more hand on your print and eventually hurt penetration.

[Underbase37]

Yesterday was my first time printing with discharge inks and I'm pretty excited about the prospect of getting into it I a big way.

So I had a play with the DC white.
I started with a bunch of diff brand tees to test. Gildan 2000, 6400 & 86000 are ones you will know so I'll explain what happened to them.
The only supplier of DC in NZ  said no need for a premix DC as I can add concentrate white.
They supplied me DC base, DC agent and DC concentrate pigment.
DC WB is not a popular printing method here in NZ with less than 5% of print shops doing it. Some of the prints I have seen from these few are pretty poor and nothing like the results you lot are getting.
If I'm going to do it i would like to do well.

-Rutland Discharge Base WB0255
-Rutland Discharge Agent WB0259
-Concentrate White Dye

I set up a small pocket print on the manual rather than auto for ease of clean etc.

Test 1. DC base, 6% agent = natural charge and penetration. (pretty excited at this stage to see it happen)

Test 2 DC base 6% agent 10% white pigment = not bright or white enough. No huge change

Test 3 & 4. Same base and agent but 20 and 30% (max) pig = brighter but not hugely whiter and slight hand. Better on a military green, charcoal and orange

Test 5. DC base, 8% agent, 30% white pigment = better, brighter but still not great. (maxed out agent and pigment percentages which isn't ideal)

There were multiple other things that I tested such as the dryer settings, squeegee duro, pressure, snap, # of pulls, angle, speed etc. some which helped in ways...and lastly an extreme 9% agent 40% pigment.

Should I of tried less DC agent than 6% rather than going more? but the white got better with higher %)
I would have thought more agent, more charge, but by the sound of it agent can mess with the pigment right?)
Should I be adding water or additives to the mix for penetration/ soak?
The fibres (through an eye glass) as well as when pulled look well covered and there is some penetration from the other side.

I had better results on charcoal, orange and military green...(they all happen to be a slightly lighter fabric weight) Could the lighter fabric, therefore more penetration be the reasoning for this?
I had my drier heating ink at average 160-200 degrees for 80 seconds and put through at least twice probably more like 4 times to make sure of full charge. Can white discolour to bone in particular on black because of intense heat?

Am I expecting too much from this DC white? It's just not white or remotely close to passable as white IMO

Do I need a super white premix for straight DC white? no one here seems to talk of adding white pigment like I was recommended by my supplier for a straight white...?

At least if I try resolve the issues I have now it will set me in good stead for further testing with both white and colours.

Activator/Agent/pigments: How much is too much? What's the ideal % for bright whites, colours, and a good cure.

Penetration: Should the ink be soaking through more than I have to give better, consistent results.

 

Here a couple is a photos of the tests.
Top= G2000 Bottom= G86000
Right to Left: Test 1- 5
Close up of DC no pigment
Close up of DC 8%agent 30%white
Penetration from other side.

This is a pretty long-winded post but writing it is also helping me get my head around it all.
Any advice and opinions would be hugely appreciated before I go and get into some more testing.

First off I think you are on the right track. Second I'm sure there are some guys on here that can give some more in depth answers, but.

As far as white goes I would try to find a pre-mix white, Rutland sells a great one. ( more of a titanium white ) I'm not sure the cost of it in NZ but it should be cheaper than most plastisol white.

Is your dryer gas or electric?  At that dryer temp (160°c=320°f) if gas, I might try 90sec. , it shouldn't change if sent through twice.

Thinner shirts tend to soak/penetrate nicer......not as much fabric. From your pics it looks as If you are getting a fair amount of penetration. Rutland has a penetrant, & H2O works well.....just don't go overboard.

If you are getting good results with just base, you might be surprised at your results with some color PC, the right % of activator will be the key to the correct color.......& test, test, test.

As far as activator 6% is about the max, you won't see much change after that. PC-overload, each manufacturer has their own limits. I think Rutland's max is 15%   

[Dochertyscott]

thanks guys,
So i talked to the Rutland supplier here in NZ and asked him to look at bringing in from the states some 'Discharge White Plus WB9067' (Is this the best Rutland DC White? seems to be the only one i can find from them)
I also asked him about the pigment and whether it was the WB-99 system and it turns out its not... it's a general dye concentrate.
He mentioned that most print a WB or platisol white/colour over top... kinda defeats the purpose in my opinion.
Hes gonna talk to this side of the worlds Rutlands specialist and will advise as to what we can get.
Rutlands WB system says max of 30% pigment and 8% activator... but surely no need to be maxing, and yes hand def became an issue at 8% activator and upwards of 20% pig)
Besides this the pigment that i got was a 'no namer' so who's to know what max is.
The dryer i have is an IR (non forced) Big Buddy... not ideal i know, but surely ok for testing and getting DC down before i look at forking out. (i have been putting shirts through multiple times)
I'll start testing and tackling the curing/wash issue's once the printing side is sussed.

[Dochertyscott]

Just got my invoice through for the DC products and the Rutland Discharge base is coded as K3-0259 looks like it could be from different (previous) line as the WB-0259?

[tonypep]

WB9067 Rutland Discharge Plus is what you want. May not be available in NZ

[Orion]

Found this today, interesting formulations. Thought it belonged in this thread.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=discharge%20ink%20formula&source=web&cd=17&ved=0CEwQFjAGOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taubliebconsulting.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F01%2Fx13-Discharge-Ink-and-Spray-Formulas.doc&ei=ilKPVKOFEY-xyATMp4KICA&usg=AFQjCNEIIizHtKezFD6SpYABSm5cOnsByQ

 I would guess the kosher salt may be the surfactant I have been looking for? Gonna need to do some testing...

[Colin]

The kosher salt does the same thing to the ink that ZFS does.  It turns it to water... i.e. extremely liquid.

If you add zfs or salt to regular water base ink it breaks down the thickening agent used.

Ink companies use a different thicker in their discharge base than they do in regular water base.

And now you know.

[Orion]

Thanks for the info Colin. I am really interested in defeating the anti-wicking agent in discharge ink so I can try the "water wash" technique.

[tonypep]

We'll be beta testing Rutlands new "Super Discharge Base" soon. Might not be till next year as we are finishing up formulation books.

[Maxie]

Rutland have a Best of Brands NPT Discharge White  BW300901
It gives you a good white after the flash.

[Maxie]

Forgot to mention, the Rutland NPT Discharge white is a plastisol, not water based.