Tri-Loc -- What went wrong?

[Underbase37]

My past experience with it has not always been the best, in that I mean, the shop I worked for back in the day, I don't feel they ever had it setup correct. This led to me using reg. marks & setting up by eye for the last......well forever now. Its worked for me over the years & I have gotten very quick with it.

In an effort to get myself off of production floor & maybe help my guys out too, I picked up a tri-loc system. I do have a few questions if any body can chime in & help/give some tips. I have now tested six jobs & all where not the "dead nuts" on I was looking for. So far some have been a bit off "up & down" wise. The worst ones being 1/16" to a 3/16" off.

All screens @ 20n-25n. Most less than 5n apart. All static frames. psi @ 45 or less. Off contact at 1/16"

My thoughts:
1. The carrier sheet/art is moving/ buckling when I put the screen in the burning unit. Tho I feel I have been good about this, & going out of my way to make sure this isn't happening.
2. The one thing I haven't done is adjust the screen air clamps on the press, so maybe it's shifting a bit at that point. I could see this being it, but not to sure, as I don't feel its the same evey time.
3. & I'm sure this might be a dumb question but, with the carrier sheets what is the best way to gang up screens? I could see us setting something up to phase them out.

Thanks for any thoughts or tips on this.
 

[inkman996]

#1. When i install the screen in the exposure unit I make sure to keep the frame up off the glass and engage all the spring plungers, once all sides are touching the plungers i pull the screen to the stop blocks, then i press the screen down to the glass nice and flat. This keeps the screen from shifting the film while installing.

#2 After locking the screen down with the tri-loc table still up visually confirm the screen is still snug against the sot blocks and have not moved. When test printing you can stand to the side and visually confirm the screen is not moving slightly while the squeegee is printing. If it is then tighten up your hangers etc.

Also to much off contact can throw off registration not by a lot but that pesky hairline here or there.

[mk162]

is it consistently off?  if it is, your heads can be off slightly from one another.

[blue moon]

also, try using a magnifying glass when placing films. It made HUGE difference for us.

pierre

[dirkdiggler]

film placement, and vaccum, and laziness makes it not work correctly.  it will NEVER be dead perfect everytime, that I guarantee if you are using films.  However its great if you get all your ducks in a row.

[Frog]

also, try using a magnifying glass when placing films. It made HUGE difference for us.

pierre

I use fairly strong reading glasses for tasks like this

[jvanick]

a guy at a shop near me uses a 10x loupe.  he says that he rarely has to touch a micro.

[RichN]

Are your screen frames tight against the front screen holders or do you have space between the frame holder and the frame? If there is space that can cause up and down movement when you lock the frames in place.

[AndyD]

My past experience with it has not always been the best, in that I mean, the shop I worked for back in the day, I don't feel they ever had it setup correct. This led to me using reg. marks & setting up by eye for the last......well forever now. Its worked for me over the years & I have gotten very quick with it.

In an effort to get myself off of production floor & maybe help my guys out too, I picked up a tri-loc system. I do have a few questions if any body can chime in & help/give some tips. I have now tested six jobs & all where not the "dead nuts" on I was looking for. So far some have been a bit off "up & down" wise. The worst ones being 1/16" to a 3/16" off.

All screens @ 20n-25n. Most less than 5n apart. All static frames. psi @ 45 or less. Off contact at 1/16"

My thoughts:
1. The carrier sheet/art is moving/ buckling when I put the screen in the burning unit. Tho I feel I have been good about this, & going out of my way to make sure this isn't happening.
2. The one thing I haven't done is adjust the screen air clamps on the press, so maybe it's shifting a bit at that point. I could see this being it, but not to sure, as I don't feel its the same evey time.
3. & I'm sure this might be a dumb question but, with the carrier sheets what is the best way to gang up screens? I could see us setting something up to phase them out.

Thanks for any thoughts or tips on this.
 

1. Make sure you are taping both sides of the film to the carrier sheet, If you are only taping one side of the film to the carrier sheet it will act as two pieces with the stronger of the two being the carrier sheet because it is attached to the pin strip. Check this by holding the carrier sheet down with one hand and slightly push the film towards the carrier sheet with the other. With only one side taped you will see that the film moves very easily against the carrier sheet. With both sides taped you shouldn't see any or as noticeable movement.
If you are getting up and down movement check how you are putting the screens into the master frame. Always physically make sure you are contacting the stop blocks. You can check this by putting a frame into the master and push it away from the top block slightly. You should see it spring back into contact with the block but that doesn't always happen. It could be the springs are not as tight as they once were. I have even seen problems when a customer is using a thick tape like Duct tape to hold the master frame to the glass. There is to much drag on the tape and the springs alone would not push the frame to the stop blocks.
2. Make sure your off contact is parallel on your heads. If the right rear screen holder is lower than the left when you lock the frame it will move away from the block.
3. The way that I gang up images is to mask off half of the glass, shoot the first image, rotate the screen and shoot the second image. I know people do not like to shoot the screen twice but this is the most accurate way I have found.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

[Evo]

I can only add:

Make sure the press is level and parallel. All heads and pallets.

Don't register everything to a spot on the light table grid. Line up the first color and then register every job film-to-film. Pick the film that corresponds to the color you might have used to register on the press the conventional way. (typically black or an underbase, etc) and register everything to that. Register them dot for dot on the reg marks, using a loupe.

Don't stack films as you go. Do one-to-one against the first film. Stack them all up at the end to double check if you want but don't register them this way.


Until you isolate other potential issues, when you place a sheet in the exposure unit on the pin bar, tape the bottom corners of the film to the glass to completely immobilize the film.

Don't use a carrier sheet more then a few times if the registration must be dead on, the holes will wear out.

Make sure nobody tapes over corners where the master frame blocks contacted the frame after the screen is exposed. (it happens!)

Make sure the screen is flat and level in the clamps before you throw the clamp switch. (sometimes pressing down on a corner is needed) The screen should not shift even a hair when the switch is thrown.

[Underbase37]

Wow thank you all. Sorry for the late reply, yesterday was a 16 hour day & I fell asleep with my phone in hand replying.

@ inkman996. I have been doing it the way the manual  instructed more like the way AndyD was describing. I will give it a shot on a set of screens the way you are describing loading it in. I have been double checking for movement against stop blocks . I don't see any movement in the screen when it prints the first time, we prime the screen & squeegees good before first print. Off contact is probably actually less than the 1/16" ( I use a quarter to set this )

@ mk162. I don't feel it has been off consistently from head to head each time. But I will make better notes of that.

@ blue moon. I use a loop to do this now, but it's one from the local art store & not sure of the power. Might need to look into a 10x.

@ dirkdiggler. burning unit vacuum & blanket working great. I don't expect things to be dead on every time, but every third time would be nice. Getting all my ducks in a row is definitely where I'm going with this.

@ Frog. funny I thought about buying some of those glasses the dentist uses but they were too expensive for me.

@ RichN. my screens have a 3/4" gap from the top of the frame to the inside of the frame holder, as instructed in the manual & video. Is this not the best way to do it in your experience?

@ AndyD. I have not been taping the art front & back, I will give it a shot. As far as putting the screen in the master frame this is more or less the way I have been doing it, the springs are working good, but this is the point where the art could move/ buckle? maybe?. On the off contact I was going to say we are good on that but upon further inspection this morning this is not as dialed in as I thought so I will be looking into this tonight. You are right I don't like the idea of shooting a screen twice but if that is the best way in your experience I will give it a try too. ( do you work for M&R? )

@Evo. it looks like I need to recheck my heads. I have not been stacking more than one film at a time with each other. Not a big fan of taping the film to the glass but will give it a shot. So far all new carrier sheets.

[Admiral]

For us the films were all perfect and we even tested taping them down on the glass to make sure they didn't move.  Tried numerous different steps prior to exposure to get it to work.

Nothing worked, it came down to a shift during vacuum pull down and we tried straps / rope to get rid of it and have better draw down but it didn't work.  It was proven to be the problem at that step by lining up the film on the tri-loc and checking each screen to it and seeing them being off even though the films were perfect.  This was a 3140 exposure unit.

I hate glass.  Don't use it anymore.

[Mark @ Hurricane Printing]

I bought a tri-loc used about two years ago and I have yet to have a job where I did not have to adjust the micros...for me, my set up, the tri loc gets me in the neighborhood but not exact registration...totally not knocking the tri loc...i like it and i know it works as it should...but in my experience with my used tri loc i have not had a perfectly registered mulit color job ever in my 2 yrs of using it...im envious of printers on here saying they get perfect reg's with their tri loc.

My set up is light table (of course)...3 loupes...nuarc MSP3140 exposure unit...chameleon 8/8 with side air clamps.

My steps:

I line up first film to centerline on light table...once aligned I tape the center of film to carrier sheet then each corner. (i will now try the suggestion of taping the back side too)

I then line up one color at a time to the first color i lined up on the light table..I dont stack my registrations..I do one at a time to the the initial one still on the light table

Transfer film/carrier sheets to 3140....when i install a film in the exposure unit i, run my fingers from the center of the pin, down the image to bottom of the film..then apply tape to that center at the bottom of film to glass to keep the film from MAYBE shifting during vacuum.

Drop blanket...vacumm..expose...(I do not use the thin ropes...no reason why really..my exposure unit didnt come with it (used) so i never looked into it..not sure if it would be a reason for losing registration on the press)

Install tri loc pallet on press..and i have to do a twist of the tri loc pallet because there is slight "play" when its installed...i can wiggle it ever so slightly...i have to twist it clockwise to make my screen center lines line up to my pallet center lines which i have to twist my pallets clockwise also...then clamp them into place.

load the screens one by one...

remove tri loc pallet..install printing pallet (clockwise twist)...

do a test print..OR i drop each screen onto my main apllet with the centerline..and see how the center reg marks fall..either way, something is always out.....ive printed more than enough jobs to go thru "what can be the root cause of this???" and thru time and process of elimination I just accept i won't have perfect reg's. I feel im on point with my pre-press steps....so im chaulking it up that its "a used tri loc" and maybe thru time the frame, metal stops, etc..etc lost their integrity maybe?...I dunno....but i still use it on every job because at least i know my frames are in exact position so that's good to know i guess because its good for my predetermined overall placement...I wonder if i could send it back to M&R and it can be "checked"??...or "re-aligned" if there is such a process?

my press and pallets are level..im talking "toperdo-levels-and-2-laser-levels-all-at-the-same-time-in-all-directions" level..pallets all same exact height...off contacts exact...everything is in place as it should be...i am fine tuned to the nth degree and ive yet to load a multi color job and just walk away from it without touching a micros....i actually challenge myself EVERYTIME with it..."This time I KNOW its dead on!!.I just know it!!!"....then line it up...STILL OFF!!! hahaha...this is just my personal experience with it..of course i can not speak for everyone else. ..im sure somewhere along the line its me and im doing something wrong but im following instructions exact everytime.

I will try taping the back side of the films now....im looking forward to it actually..something new to try.

oh..btw..my tri lock exposure frame is taped with black gorilla tape on all 4 sides on outside of frame and inside of frame (not interfering with the lay down of the screen to the glass)...it doesnt move...(but i have been thinking of removing that tape and using 10lbs double sided tape)..and i quadruple check screen frames are touching the 3 stops....i use aluminum square frames and roller frames..but i never mix the frames on jobs...when i print i use ONLY the aluminum frames for a job..or ONLY rollers for a job.

[244]

I bought a tri-loc used about two years ago and I have yet to have a job where I did not have to adjust the micros...for me, my set up, the tri loc gets me in the neighborhood but not exact registration...totally not knocking the tri loc...i like it and i know it works as it should...but in my experience with my used tri loc i have not had a perfectly registered mulit color job ever in my 2 yrs of using it...im envious of printers on here saying they get perfect reg's with their tri loc.

My set up is light table (of course)...3 loupes...nuarc MSP3140 exposure unit...chameleon 8/8 with side air clamps.

My steps:

I line up first film to centerline on light table...once aligned I tape the center of film to carrier sheet then each corner. (i will now try the suggestion of taping the back side too)

I then line up one color at a time to the first color i lined up on the light table..I dont stack my registrations..I do one at a time to the the initial one still on the light table

Transfer film/carrier sheets to 3140....when i install a film in the exposure unit i, run my fingers from the center of the pin, down the image to bottom of the film..then apply tape to that center at the bottom of film to glass to keep the film from MAYBE shifting during vacuum.

Drop blanket...vacumm..expose...(I do not use the thin ropes...no reason why really..my exposure unit didnt come with it (used) so i never looked into it..not sure if it would be a reason for losing registration on the press)

Install tri loc pallet on press..and i have to do a twist of the tri loc pallet because there is slight "play" when its installed...i can wiggle it ever so slightly...i have to twist it clockwise to make my screen center lines line up to my pallet center lines which i have to twist my pallets clockwise also...then clamp them into place.

load the screens one by one...

remove tri loc pallet..install printing pallet (clockwise twist)...

do a test print..OR i drop each screen onto my main apllet with the centerline..and see how the center reg marks fall..either way, something is always out.....ive printed more than enough jobs to go thru "what can be the root cause of this???" and thru time and process of elimination I just accept i won't have perfect reg's. I feel im on point with my pre-press steps....so im chaulking it up that its "a used tri loc" and maybe thru time the frame, metal stops, etc..etc lost their integrity maybe?...I dunno....but i still use it on every job because at least i know my frames are in exact position so that's good to know i guess because its good for my predetermined overall placement...I wonder if i could send it back to M&R and it can be "checked"??...or "re-aligned" if there is such a process?

my press and pallets are level..im talking "toperdo-levels-and-2-laser-levels-all-at-the-same-time-in-all-directions" level..pallets all same exact height...off contacts exact...everything is in place as it should be...i am fine tuned to the nth degree and ive yet to load a multi color job and just walk away from it without touching a micros....i actually challenge myself EVERYTIME with it..."This time I KNOW its dead on!!.I just know it!!!"....then line it up...STILL OFF!!! hahaha...this is just my personal experience with it..of course i can not speak for everyone else. ..im sure somewhere along the line its me and im doing something wrong but im following instructions exact everytime.

I will try taping the back side of the films now....im looking forward to it actually..something new to try.

oh..btw..my tri lock exposure frame is taped with black gorilla tape on all 4 sides on outside of frame and inside of frame (not interfering with the lay down of the screen to the glass)...it doesnt move...(but i have been thinking of removing that tape and using 10lbs double sided tape)..and i quadruple check screen frames are touching the 3 stops....i use aluminum square frames and roller frames..but i never mix the frames on jobs...when i print i use ONLY the aluminum frames for a job..or ONLY rollers for a job.

Give me or Andy DaSilva a call here at M&R. You are missing a few steps!

[Croft]

I have found between myself and the other person setting up jobs , that mine are usually more accurate and usually don't need any micro adjustment.   From what I see when she sets up job she may not hold the frame firmly enough against the blocks  or activate the clamps as quickly as whats needed. Dry squeegees also don't help. I can reset up the same job with better results. I think there may just be a lack of confidence in setting up.