Can someone please explain...

[sqslabs]

...how people are discharging 50/50 with 100% cotton results?

I'm not a newcomer when it comes to waterbased and discharge inks, and consider myself to be pretty proficient with them.  For the first year of my business, I didn't use an ounce of plastisol, and my shop was built on the back of the softhand prints going out the door.  I learned most of what I know from Matt & Dennis at Westix before they closed, and have continued experimenting with the inks since then.

I can't say I've had my ear to the ground when it comes to the latest products, and have stuck to Matsui inks due to the huge library of colors that I've built over the years.  They have since discontinued the PC line that I use, and I'm down to the last few drops in a few of the pigments so I'll be making the switch to something else soon. 

I don't want to threadjack Alex's post regarding the D-Flo inks, so I'll quote what I posted there in hopes that someone can answer my questions. 

Alright, from what I understand of discharge ink, and I'm finding out quickly that I know less than I thought, it needs to penetrate the thread in order to set properly.  This has always been how I have treated it, which is why I've always required 100% cotton shirts when printing with it.  I apply the same rules to waterbased ink.

Cotton is a natural fiber, and acts like a sponge, absorbing the ink.  Polyester is a synthetic, non porous thread, so the discharge sits on top of it and doesn't penetrate.  Both can look great once printed, but when washed, the ink falls off the poly.  This is my understanding, and would make sense in this case.  Except for the white.

And this is where I get confused.  I've never seen a discharge white print hold like that on a blend, and didn't think it was even possible without some sort of bonding additive either added to the ink, or some sort of pretreatment to the shirt.  Even on a 90/10, using Matsui inks I've always seen 10% less brightness on the final product over a cotton shirt.  Now obviously I'm a bit behind the times on this, as a bunch of people on this forum seem to be discharging 50/50's and getting great results, even after a wash.  So have the inks changed?  Or are the shirt manufacturers doing something different in order to make their blends dischargeable?  In this case, it looks like the white ink is bonding to the polyester fibers, but the orange did not.  Which goes against everything I thought I knew about discharge ink.   

To add to that, as the trend toward discharge inks has grown in recent years, I've had plenty of shirt reps tell me their blends were dischargeable, but I always chalked that up to them not knowing what they were talking about.  In the meantime, I've come up with lots of ways to get a soft hand on a blend without discharge inks, but none of them have the no-hand of discharge after a wash.  This is definitely something that I'm interested in, as I print quite often on fashion blends and am always looking for a new way to get a softer feel.  I was just under the impression (from my own experiments) that if I printed a 50/50 with discharge ink, I'd end up with a dull 50% discharge.  So what's changed?  And if the ink is bonding to the polyester threads, is it still giving a no-hand feel after a wash?

[TCT]

I suppose I may not be in the best place to advise here with my current situation going on:'( but for us it was a lot of trying. We would usually get in 1 or 2 extra "trendy" shirts with and print them on the tail end of a order to test. We still tend to have issues with 50/50's that are "problem colors" for 100% cotton. But I would say in the last 9 months or so we have been doing a lot of DC underbase with WB top colors. Some with a WB white for a underbase with WB top colors ect. It sucks, but test, test, test.
This is one if the reasons I am so put off by our current D-Flo orange situation. When we got that D-Flo stater kit we took pretty much a full day playing with combinations to find out which worked!

If anyone wants some dark heather 50/50's to test on, a got some for ya!

[sqslabs]

Thanks for the response man.. I'm not saying it can't be done. Judging by the photos you and others have posted it most certainly can.  I've also done a lot with waterbased ink that I was told couldn't be done, through experimentation and also out of necessity in my first year of business, and really enjoy taking that route.  Hence the "labs" behind my shop acronym.   

So I'm less wondering if its possible, and more wondering how its possible, as the science simply doesn't make sense based on what I understand unless the inks or poly threads themselves have changed.  Or maybe I just don't understand discharge as much as I thought I did, which is a definite possibility.  I'm just looking for an answer either way as I'd like to be as educated as possible on the subject.

[TCT]

When it comes to the science part of it, it comes down to- LOOK a bunny! What I am trying to say is I am not the one to totally explain that.

Zoocity/Chris has been a big help for me a few times(not that others haven't) but Chris has always been very willing to share. If you are into the science part of it, you may want to look into Virus's inks... I was in a shop in Portugal that used their ink, and I could of swore I was in a science lab. He had a glow in the dark ink of a caliber I have never seen! With the conversion of the Euro and the metric system I never figured the price he said it was but I'm pretty sure it was a few hundred for under about a gallon! Anyway, if you want to talk to one of the has chemists at Virus, PM me and I'll see if I can connect you two.

[sqslabs]

A bunny???  Where?!   

All good man, I appreciate your input regardless.  And I'm sure you can answer the question about the hand post-washing.  Is it similar to a no-hand cotton shirt or is there a bit of a feel to it?  I think either way would explain a bit about how the ink is setting.

And thanks for the heads up on Virus.  As mentioned before, I'm currently in the market for a new discharge mixing system and am beginning to weigh my options.  Based on your reports and others, I was getting some samples of the Union/Rutland stuff.  But it sounds like Virus is making some good stuff as well, and my local ink distributor has been throwing that name around a bit lately so I'll have to check it out as well.

Still hoping someone here can chime in and answer my questions, but if not, I'd definitely be interested in talking to one of the guys at Virus.  Much appreciated man.   

[TCT]

Sometimes it's a bunny, sometimes it's this damn forum that distracts me!

I think going with JUST a Virus system would be an expensive route. You may want to find a "basic" system to use for those problem Black Gildan 2000's   I think Virus may very well prosper in the more speciality niche. But if you want to talk science with their chemist in Italy let me know.

[tonypep]

Can't speak to much of this however I can say that I am reasonably certain that we were the first to stumble on this (purely by accident) 17 ys ago. Ink and garment mfgrs said don't even try however the Indian Motorcycle Girl sim pro/dc performed beautifully on army and navy heathers from Alt App. Research ensued shortly after.

[sqslabs]

Can't speak to much of this however I can say that I am reasonably certain that we were the first to stumble on this (purely by accident) 17 ys ago. Ink and garment mfgrs said don't even try however the Indian Motorcycle Girl sim pro/dc performed beautifully on army and navy heathers from Alt App. Research ensued shortly after.

That's interesting, thanks for sharing.  Do you find the inks in these instances hold well over time or do they begin to fade at some point?  Just wondering if the bond with the poly fibers is a permanent one, or one that weakens over time.

[IntegrityShirts]

Matsui is discontinuing what now? I have a bunch of NEO pigments and hadn't planned on changing. Hope you mean a different set of pigments.

I discharge almost solely on blends, usually because the client wants a certain feel garment or breath-ability.  Blends will never discharge as brightly as cotton. Period. Unless you cover the base threads with a top white, blends will always have a little less pop.  Do they fade quicker? In my opinion, yes.  It's the nature of water-based inks and their ability to hold onto poly threads.

I printed a black matsui wb ink straight out the bucket onto white tees. Threw in a 100% poly white in the end for fun, because Matsui said it would work. And it did. That shirt has been washed a handful of times and is still black in on a white poly tee. It is not as DEEP a black as on the cotton shirts though, a shade or two off black. I can find and post a couple pics of them both side by side.

When you discharge a 100% cotton navy shirt vs. a 50/50, they're both decently bright, cotton is still brighter.

When you discharge a 100% cotton turquoise shirt vs. a 50/50, they both suck.

Some manufacturers claim their blanks are dischargeable in the blue/red hues, and THAT might be newer to the industry than anything ink related.

[TCT]

Some manufacturers claim their blanks are dischargeable in the blue/red hues, and THAT might be newer to the industry than anything ink related.

I have found that too. When I rep comes in with samples or whatever they make a point within the last year to say "we don't re dye colors" or "we sell re dyed colors marked as such". That type of thing I have noticed a lot lately.

[tonypep]

Sorry but (some) blends just as bright as cotton. Perfectly with regards to colors. This an old pic but the shirt on the left is charcoal heather. The shirt fabric changes the gray hues a bit. We print on blends many times a day and perform wash tests. No problem. This is a one color.

[IntegrityShirts]

I guess I should have clarified my opinion that with today's thin 3oz blends that you can already SEE through unprinted may start out as bright, just won't maintain that same solidity due to the nature of cotton/poly blends that pill as they age. The cotton seems to clump while the poly stays put.  Add in any water-based COLORS on top of that print and compare wash cycles. Again, my opinion only, that they don't hold on as long as they do on all cotton.