[theory] What makes white ink so hard to print? Part 4

[abchung]

I think he was talking about the dimensional thickness rather than density thickness.

Which brings up another point, will the thinner deposit be longer or shorter than the thick deposit of the same ink?

pierre

Yes I was thinking about the dimensional thickness. A thinner diameter spaghetti is easier to break than a thick one.

[starchild]

Pierre, after reading some of your post I see what your asking about whats going on at the bottom of the screen.  From what I see it all depends on whats happen at the top..short body long body don't matter if the inks are not warm,correct squeegee, squeegee angle, print pressure, print speed, tight mesh, mesh count to me all that plays a big factor in how a ink will work.  I would almost bet you and I could use the ink and it might be the root to boot in your shop and might print like crap in my shop from the way I set it up, I know all this still does not explain a long and short body ink and why it happens, but I know some inks print great for me and some don't.

Darryl

Darryl, your comment is the reason I am down this path. Why should the inks print different?

My thinking is that if we take the lab readings on the inks and understand 99% of what is going on with them, we should ALL be able to set up our presses to get the most out of the ink. Without really understanding the ink properties we are all guessing what to do and how to print. We all find ways to make it happen, but I would rather understand the viscosity, density, tack and body and then go and set up the press to match those. I think if we truly understood those, we would all have the presses set up the same!!!

does that make sense?

pierre

Certificate of Analysis.. We should be able to set up our production based on the ink's performance test that the manufacturers did or should be doing. We should not have to run these test ourselves and the supplier should no be accepting the inks from manufactures without a Certificate.. When someone has a problem, we should be asking well what is the value of (..... insert property here.) That way the problem can be pointed out with certainty.

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[3Deep]

P, I understand what your after, but I don't think your going to get what your after just to much inbetween, climate is a big factor and shop condition where I might have air conditioning in my shop some might have bay doors and big fans blowing which I'm sure will play a big factor in how that ink prints in that shop.  Hey if you get it nailed down I hope you share with the rest of us because you are right white ink has been a very difficult ink to pin down to just one really good general ink.

Darryl

[tonypep]

Another great aspect to DC printing as that, for the most part, all inks print the same so we don't have to spend time on this non-issue

[ScreenFoo]

Another great aspect to DC printing as that, for the most part, all inks print the same so we don't have to spend time on this non-issue

Too bad you can't get all the different shirts to print the same, right? 
I guess though, you fix one problem, you get another...

Starchild reminds me about something I was going to mention before with the COA discussion--who has problems with the most expensive whites?   Anyone paid over a hundred bucks for a gallon of something that printed like crap?  I think a lot of the specs and lack of QC come down to market pressures--the demand for low prices is higher than the demand for consistency, whether it's the ink manufacturer, or the supplier cutting corners on AC in the warehouse...

[ebscreen]

That warrior white uses a duller white pigment and puffs a very large amount.... I dislike it

EB, the only way to change the rheology of a super short/thick ink is to add as liquid a component as possible.... this will quickly bring the stiffness down while still keeping the short properties.

Thanks Colin and Foo. I figured as much on the reducer or base, just hoping there was an easier way.
I'm loathe to modify whites, particularly full fives.

[ZooCity]

who has problems with the most expensive whites?

That's right on the money.

Nobody is going to provide a cert, testing, reliable tech data or any consistency at the prices of many of the white plasti inks discussed here.  It's like cotton Ts- a mill can pony up for a specific USDA graded cotton every time and keep it consistent or they can use whatever is available and cheapest.  I try not to complain that the kajillions of Tultex 0202 Ts we run through in a year are different every time because I know their goal is to provide the lowest cost ringspun (esque) cotton T on the market.  If I took the same approach to ink I would expect the same fluctuations in raw materials and finished product. 

If you're going to test, be aware that you may be working with a moving target with the more affordable inks.

[Screened Gear]

If you're going to test, be aware that you may be working with a moving target with the more affordable inks.

I don't think Pierre is testing a brand of ink as much the carataristics of a ink that makes it print well. I know it sounds like the same thing.

[ZooCity]

That makes much more sense, learn how to work with all of it.

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[starchild]

Printers use more affordable inks in their operations and would get a better performance out of their production runs if they tune their setup to match the affordable inks rheological, optical and thermal properties.

I'm sure people have experienced the situation where one printer say this ink amazing and another printer tries the recommended ink and had less than stellar results.. Conclusion? Each priner set up is different and the environment of the location.. Well a press setup should be done around the ink, not just throw any ink into a press setup based on some default setting or on a past ink that performs well.

We should be able to get the same results from any ink at any print shop, summer, winter and humidity..

Put two comparable inks from two different manufacturers- Both inks are milled the same and sell at identical prices..
Ink Aa sells their ink with a cert and how to interpret their values.. Ink Bb sale pitch- IT'S AMAZING!!!
Which company will be more successful at selling their ink? Which ink will perfom better on most presses?

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[Colin]

The Ink that goes through the more open weave and has the better of the two press ops working with it will win......

There are soooooo many different shop production parameters out there it's ridiculous.  I have sold drums of cheap white ink to shops that only run 110 mesh for their base plates and buy only on price.

I have sold white ink to shops that run 150-220 mesh for base plates and are VERY smart printers.  They bought what worked best for them - It was not always the most expensive option!

Are you a contract house that prints on ringspun 40 singles?  Or, crappy cheap shirts that look like they were made from cheesecloth?

Are you a retail house that can control its variables?

Again, I love what you are trying to do Pierre.  You will net a lot of very valuable information for yourself!

Making a certificate about ink properties will do nothing if the print shops of the world are not using the same mesh/tension/squeegee blade/etc... to print with.  They also need to have the same goals for print quality.

Will a "certificate" work with high end shops that have very experienced and knowledgeable printers?  Yea, but they won't need it.  They will stir the ink and know 90% of what it can do from that experience.

Will a cert help middle tier shops?  I think more than half can benefit from it, but they need the staff to pull it off.

Honestly, instead of creating a cert.... Create a Youtube video giving close attention to the variables you need to control in order to create an amazing white print.  Point out all the garment variables with prints showing the differences.  Show that with different types of white ink, long bodied/short bodied/cotton/low bleed/ etc...  Show what happens when you change your emulsion thickness.... show what happens when you use a more open mesh..... show different mesh counts and those variables... show a soft (60 or 65 Duro) squeegee Vs. a hard squeegee (70/90/70 or 75 Duro)..... Show a smoothing screen in usage and it's benefits on fibrous shirts....

If you are an ink company send out a link to that video, or create a cheap thumb drive to send out with every new ink purchase so the shop personel can learn something new....

Oh... and chemically..... if an ink company was to make a cert... it would ONLY be for an expensive ink.  Cheap inks use components that are not always consistent.  I have touched on this before....

My 2 cents during break time...

Again, Pierre, I love your drive to Learn and to create some standards within this industry!

[tonypep]

We should stop calling it Screenprinting and change the name to Chaos Theory!

[Colin]

Printing Chaos?

Sounds about right to me!

[Screened Gear]

We should be able to get the same results from any ink at any print shop, summer, winter and humidity..

I agree with this. It is not so much the ink then the control you have of your equipment. Lets face it alot of us suck at printing unless we have all the training wheels. (smoothing screens, lint screens, ink mixers, reducers, expensive forgiving inks, special flood bars and squeegees. All these things make our life's easier. The reason we have them is because we don't really understand the way our presses print.  Why do we use these things? Well the reason is the same as the reason we don't all print award winning designs all day everyday. Time. We don't have time to set up a press to print perfect flat white ink with out using a smoothing screen, special mesh and special squeegees. We don't have time to truly learn our presses and the latitude of adjustments that we have with them. That takes too long. These band-aids give us a large window to be off on our abilities and still get a sell-able print.

Now back to the topic at hand. Will this study Pierre is putting a ton of time and money into benefit us? The answer is NO, in fact hell no. We maybe able to understand the study. We maybe able to try to duplicate the results with the same inks. But we will not give up our band-aids long enough to learn our presses to really benefit from the knowledge. Testing your inks is one step in the process. Next will be the right squeegee selection for that ink. Then the correct mesh, pressure, angle,  flood and the speed setting of them. Any one of these setting can seriously change the performance of the perfect ink. How long will you really spend on the "perfect ink" before you say "this ink sucks".

I am not saying what Pierre is doing is not going to be beneficial. It will be but only to the people that already have control of their presses and time to learn to make the "perfect ink" work on their setups.

[3Deep]

You guys just said the same thing I told Pierre earlier in this post, but why don't we have the same problems with color inks, seem to me we never complain about the color inks unless its mixing ink color or DC.

Darryl