Discharge Whites Compared

[mimosatexas]

So I finally had a spare minute to test CCI D-White and Magna Superwhite against the Matsui Brite White I have been using for the past few years. 

I did 15 total mixes, 5 for each brand, as follows:
1. 6% Matsui Activator
2. 6% CCI Activator
3. 6% Magna Activator
4. 10% of the Activator that corresponds to the brand, plus water, Matsui printgen, and Matsui fixer N
5. A tweaked version of whatever was brightest of the above in an attempt to maximize the brightness for that ink.

I tested each mix on a Black Gildan 5000 and a Navy Anvil 980, both shirts I commonly discharge with great results.  I also tested them on a Kelly Green and a Purple to compare problem shirts.

Here is what I found:
1. The CCI Activator worked better than the other brands, regardless of the ink brand being used.  It wasn't an enormous difference, but it was there. 
2. There was no "bad" mix, and adding printgen and fixer did not obviously affect brightness in any of my tests.
3. Adding water to the Magna made it unmanageable on screen as it is already VERY thin for a discharge white.  CCI also did not need water, though I did dissolve the activator in water for it's optimal mix.  Matsui required water to penetrate the shirt and prevent noticeable hand.
4. Matsui was the brightest on all tests.  I honestly did not expect this, and I tried to figure out if there was something I was doing that would bias the results, like undercuring the other inks because they had more inherent water content, but no matter the test, Matsui won the brightness test.  The CCI ink was almost always close, but the Magna was underwhelming and downright bad on some of the tests.  The Matsui was noticeably better on the Kelly Green test.
5. CCI ate through my Aquasol HVP postexposed and hardened screens alarmingly quickly.  None failed, but they noticeably gummed up very quickly.  The Matsui and Magna had no effect on the emulsion.
6. The CCI and Magna printed wonderfully without dry-in even on 300S screens with 55 LPI halftones, even after flooding and letting sit for 10 minutes.  The Matsui had dry-in on every screen after about 4 minutes without spritzing or printing.

Due to only a slight hit to brightness and the fact that additives weren't needed to make it print like butter, and the fact that it had no dry-in even on high mesh counts and detail, I think the CCI D-White is arguably the best of the three I tested.  I'm still interested in testing other options out there.  If I could figure out why the CCI was so much more abrasive to the HVP than the other inks, I would likely start using it as my go to white, but I really would prefer to keep using the single emulsion if possible.

Here's a pic with the swatches from my 225S solid print, edited to overlay eachother for easier comparison.  The brown in the Magna was visible in nearly every test and was really disappointing.  These are from the same image with even lighting, and they look pretty much true to life.

[mimosatexas]

To add quickly, I think the CCI printed and discharged more evenly that the Matsui, especially with higher mesh counts on solid areas.  This is probably due to it penetrating better.  That said, the Matsui had a more vibrant bright white, while the CCI had a slightly blue/gray tint and always seemed more dull in a way.  The photo shows kind of what I mean.

[dirkdiggler]

I have those same tests with Magna beating all.  Different shop, different results.

[Matsui (PVC Free Inks)]

Great comparison test and very informative.

[mimosatexas]

I have those same tests with Magna beating all.  Different shop, different results.

Would you mind going into more detail about your setup, how you prepped the ink (activator amounts, any additives, etc), what you tested on and how (mesh counts, dryer settings, etc)?  I was really hoping the Magna would perform better, but it is just bad.  It doesn't seem to have enough solids count/concentration, and didn't fully activate or activate as strongly as the others.  Honestly, it acted a lot like a 50% Matsui Brite White, 50% Matsui Brite Base mix would act, both on screen and as far as the visible brown fibers were concerned.  Did you add a higher percentage of activator or anything that differed from my tests?

[dirkdiggler]

6% activator in all my discharge whites.  Straight from the bucket super magna white zfs NOT nf.  Black Gildan 5000  dryer 375 degrees 12ft per minute.

[abchung]

Would you mind going into more detail about your setup, how you prepped the ink (activator amounts, any additives, etc), what you tested on and how (mesh counts, dryer settings, etc)?  I was really hoping the Magna would perform better, but it is just bad.  It doesn't seem to have enough solids count/concentration, and didn't fully activate or activate as strongly as the others.  Honestly, it acted a lot like a 50% Matsui Brite White, 50% Matsui Brite Base mix would act, both on screen and as far as the visible brown fibers were concerned.  Did you add a higher percentage of activator or anything that differed from my tests?

Looking at your sample of the Magna, the Magna did discharge because we can see the natural cotton colour. May be not enough pigment because I get the same issue when I reduce the amount of pigment in my matsui discharge inks. I was trying to achieve a light colour without adding white.

[ZooCity]

Your next test should be performance across a wide variety of fabrics.  CCI is our DC White as it came out on top over the widest range.  I think each of those inks you tested could beat the other two on certain fabrics. 

It's puzzling how this can be so different shop to shop. 

I firmly believe it has a lot to do with the curing apparatus.  Try this test- fully discharge a test dot (ventilate while doing so) with a heat gun.  Then run the same test dot through your dryer atregular production settings.  Is the heat gun cured dot brighter?  Then either your dryer or it's settings are not optimal for DC.  The heat gun provides a perfect setting for the discharge process, tons of super hot, forced air blasting right through the garment. In reality there are few dryers that could achieve this, I imagine it's possible but the bill for running it would be insane, so it winds up being a compromise.

DC being what it is I'm sure location relative to batches of shirt stock (did your Black G5000 come from the dye house in Country X or Country Y?), relative humidity, intake length of the dryer and planetary alignment are also factors.

[TCT]

So I totally admit this is a thread jack and I'm sorry, but Chris took the thoughts OUT of my head so I had to point this out.

The heat gun provides a perfect setting for the discharge process, tons of super hot, forced air blasting right through the garment. In reality there are few dryers that could achieve this, I imagine it's possible but the bill for running it would be insane, so it winds up being a compromise.

Scary how similar our thoughts on this are! Check out this video(yes I did a crappy job) and the intensity of the air, I was pretty impressed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3a8aope40A

-End of thread jack-
For what it is worth, back when we did a comparison our front runner was the Rutland white. I could never for the life of me get the Matsui whites to ever work, they were always SO thick.

[ZooCity]

We actually have some Rutland to test, too busy, but need to check it out.

Those S.Roque dryers are in a different efficiency class than anything else sold in the U.S. right now.  You def pay for it up front though I bet it comes back quick.  Just compare the btu on those green colored dryers to everything else at similar size. 

From the vid that just looks like some flutter from where the pieces get to that weird area at the end of the tunnel where the hood vent is drawing some air back out of the chamber.

[mimosatexas]

Your next test should be performance across a wide variety of fabrics.  CCI is our DC White as it came out on top over the widest range.  I think each of those inks you tested could beat the other two on certain fabrics. 

It's puzzling how this can be so different shop to shop. 

I firmly believe it has a lot to do with the curing apparatus.  Try this test- fully discharge a test dot (ventilate while doing so) with a heat gun.  Then run the same test dot through your dryer atregular production settings.  Is the heat gun cured dot brighter?  Then either your dryer or it's settings are not optimal for DC.  The heat gun provides a perfect setting for the discharge process, tons of super hot, forced air blasting right through the garment. In reality there are few dryers that could achieve this, I imagine it's possible but the bill for running it would be insane, so it winds up being a compromise.

DC being what it is I'm sure location relative to batches of shirt stock (did your Black G5000 come from the dye house in Country X or Country Y?), relative humidity, intake length of the dryer and planetary alignment are also factors.

I tested on an Anvil 980 heather (60% poly, 40% cotton), and a sweatshirt that is 80% cotton, 20% poly.  The results were in line with the 100% cotton shirts.  I also actually cured many of the tests with a heatgun first, as that is how I normally cure swatch tests.  Again, in line with what I posted.  As for dryer settings.  I ran them through 3 times, and the results of running through twice and 3 times were identical (i often run discharge whites through twice on my dryer because it is small).  I'm not sure how lot numbers would matter across multiple shirts and doing the tests on the same individual shirts with all 3 inks.  I tried to account for these kinds of variables and test lots of scenarios in an effort to eliminate bias, and I'm not sure how my results would be so different from another shop as a result.  I would understand if I had run one test on one shirt with one set of variables and called it a day, but I didnt.

[mimosatexas]

For what it is worth, back when we did a comparison our front runner was the Rutland white. I could never for the life of me get the Matsui whites to ever work, they were always SO thick.

I definitely want to try to rutland white next.  The Matsui NEEDS a good amount of water added, and printgen helps with penetration and printability as well.  It is definitely way too thick out of the bucket.

[tonypep]

Yes Chaos Theory applies here with regards to different results however multiple side by side tests using same screens and pre-press parameters Rutland white is best for me. Had to switch out to another brand due to a hiccup and we had noticeable quality issues. Yes it costs more but beats plastisol.

[TCT]

 The Matsui NEEDS a good amount of water added, and printgen helps with penetration and printability as well.  It is definitely way too thick out of the bucket.

So I had 2 beefs with the Matsui system that in the end made me switch. 1) It always seemed like we were adding like 4 additives to the mixture. Printing "right out of the bucket" never seemed to happen. 2) Their color formula program didn't have the best results for us. Sound like they updated the mixing software, so that may be a non issue now.
The Matsui Bright Discharge base however is the bee's knees!

[alan802]

I tested the Matsui, Rutland and CCI D-white side by side about a year ago and the Matsui was brightest just like mim's test.  I didn't do as thorough of a test though and printed them all through the exact same screen with cleaning it as good as I could between inks.  6% on all of them and used the same activator for all 3, ZFS.  They were all 3 fairly close so if one of them would have done better in another category besides opacity (only real judging I did) then I could see using it over the Matsui.  I still have all 3 in stock and maybe it's time to run another, more thorough test here and see if things have changed.