Discharge and Matsui fixer

[Rockers]

Just a quick question, you guys who a run discharge job and add as well fixer to the ink do you run the shirts at a faster speed through the dryer or do you stay with the same setting you use for discharge without fixer. We just did a discharge job and added the first time some Matsui fixer to the ink and ran it faster. Test washed a shirt with the result of the ink washing off. Looks real vintage now;)
And what the recommended maximum pigment load for Matsui pigments? We added 8% to the CCI base.

[broadway]

I do not use wb/dc inks but i think the fixer is designed for people that do not have the correct dryer to properly cure the wb/dc ink.  I do not think it is to be used as a low cure additve like with plastisol inks. Slower the better with wb.

[Nick Bane]

yeah i add a bit of extra binder to my waterbases as well, but its never so i can speed up the dryer belt.  it doesnt change cure times as far as im aware.  just to make the pigment hold on to the fabric a bit better. thats what ive found anyway.

[tpitman]

I've not seen Fixer N marketed as a catalyst, but as an additive to improve washfastness.
From posts on Matsui inks, and from my local vendor, the maximum pigment load is 10%, but I think it's the binder that would determine the maximum amount of pigment it could take and still cure properly, not the pigment.

[Frog]

I've not seen Fixer N marketed as a catalyst, but as an additive to improve washfastness.
From posts on Matsui inks, and from my local vendor, the maximum pigment load is 10%, but I think it's the binder that would determine the maximum amount of pigment it could take and still cure properly, not the pigment.

from our new Matsui representative, Jessie in another thread, " Fixer F is our cross linking agent that fixes the ink at lower temperatures which improves wash fastness and works great for the smaller printers that have electric dryers"

[Rockers]

I've not seen Fixer N marketed as a catalyst, but as an additive to improve washfastness.
From posts on Matsui inks, and from my local vendor, the maximum pigment load is 10%, but I think it's the binder that would determine the maximum amount of pigment it could take and still cure properly, not the pigment.

from our new Matsui representative, Jessie in another thread, " Fixer F is our cross linking agent that fixes the ink at lower temperatures which improves wash fastness and works great for the smaller printers that have electric dryers"

That's exactly what I was referring to. I read that last week and thought I might give it a try. Obviously it did not work as anticipated. Might have to ask the guys at Matsui here in Japan as well.

[mimosatexas]

not sure if it was a typo or it is two different products, but you reference fixer N and the rep says fixer F.  I have fixer N in my shop and have never heard of Fixer F.

[Frog]

http://www.matsui-color.com/auxiliaries.php

[tpitman]

not sure if it was a typo or it is two different products, but you reference fixer N and the rep says fixer F.  I have fixer N in my shop and have never heard of Fixer F.

I went out to my garage and checked what I'd bought from Westix before they went t!ts up, and it's Fixer N. Thought I'd possibly just thrown any old consonant in there, or maybe the label was mis-printed.

Must be a different Fixer they offer now.

[abchung]

Fixer F vs Fixer N.

 FIXER *N* and FIXER *F* will each result in identical performance.

    FIXER *N* is an eco-friendly curing accelerator additive made from higher cost raw materials. 
    FIXER *F* is Regulatory Compliant and is a safe, less expensive alternative. 


The info I got from the following website.
http://www.screenanddigitalsupply.com/store/screen-printing/ink-room/textile-inks/matsui/matsui-inks-discharge/matsui-fixer-n-f-color-setting-additive.html

[jsheridan]

That's exactly what I was referring to. I read that last week and thought I might give it a try. Obviously it did not work as anticipated. Might have to ask the guys at Matsui here in Japan as well.

I like to hold to the 3 minute gas dryer rule for WB curing. People need to accept that if they want to be productive in WB/DC printing, they have to use a forced air gas dryer. The variables for undercure and scorching are to high to put all of your trust in a cure from an ink additive alone.

The Matsui additives are in a league of their own for sure, even if you don't use their inks, use their additives.

As far as the 10% load and fixer. I've got formulas for some reds that contain 25% pigment load and use enough fixer N that the ink prints like elmers glue.

[mimosatexas]

You don't NEED a forced air gas dryer to properly cure WB/DC prints.  About half my work is discharge and I have an ancient 10'x36" single phase electric dryer without forced air.  I have dialed in my settings and process by experimenting, and I have washed and worn some designs for literally years that look almost as vibrant as the day they came off the belt.  If the ink is cured, it's cured, and the specific piece of equipment used isn't important.  It always annoys me when people say stuff like "you need 3 minutes at x temp using x kind of dryer" when none of those variables are what determines a proper cure.  If the water has been evaporated, the ink is cured.  This can be done with a flash dryer, or a heat gun, or your oven in the kitchen.  Obviously, having a fancy forced air gas dryer is ideal, but it is far from essential.

[starchild]

I think he was saying for high production a force air gas dryer is preferable.

What I don't agree with is discouraging using the fixer to increase cure times in smaller electric dryers..
(It works for me, it does not need to work for us..)

Is the industry made up of mostly forced air gas dryers? I don't know but I suspect not.. Should product development of water based ink stop at the forced air gas dryer frontier?

Ink manufacturers should be pushed to overcome this issue and that can only happen by trial and feedback so that they can improve upon the fix..

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[mimosatexas]

He implied it was a necessity, I was countering with my own experience.  Obviously certain equipment is optimal...

I have always used the fixer to help with washfastness as it relates to dulling of high pigment load colors like reds, not to try to speed anything up.

[tonypep]

I would venture to say that yes; forced air gas dryers are the most common in the industry. On these boards perhaps not.