S mesh for sim process

[ScreenPrinter123]

What's the highest mesh count you think you should need in the Murakami s mesh to hold fantastic detail on sim process jobs - 225s or the 310s. We use both but with sim process jobs the 310 has always lacked the punch in opacity that the 225 has - but are you really losing any detail or major lpi by using 225 as your Highest s mesh count?  Thoughts?  Don't have enough sim process jobs under our belt to really say anything with authority. I just know what I've seen lacking as far as opacity in the 310 range and am wondering if that should just be reserved for cmyk?

[Gilligan]

I sat in a Dane clemont class at ISS and he is a huge believer in 45 lpi and no need for more.

He definitely had some nice prints done with it.

[Dottonedan]

I am a believer in very high mesh. This tho, Fri Multi color sim process should be reserved for shops with a min of 8 colors and higher. With high mesh, you gain "punch" by havi g (more colors) in the mix. 6 color presses are more limited to achieve good saturation with lower mesh like in the 200-280 range.

I prefer as high as you can for sim process. Even on a manual.

The 45lpi position really is geared towards new printers and the large majority of those that take those classes are Danes client base. Keep in mind, Danes specialty is not printing but he does know how to market art. I have to say that printing is not my specialty either (as I don't print myself) but 90% of my experience on hands had been geared towards sim process on high mesh. Highest I've used is a 400 mesh for sure. Possibly 450.  These are used on large presses where you have enough color stations to provide the needed "saturation" .  305 and higher does not provide deep ink coverage. Adding more screens over that, assist in ink coverage or saturation.

The less colors you have, the lower the(high mesh range) might be.  I wouldn't use anything lower that 230 myself in a 6 color manual.

So, my answer us, it depends on how many colors you have to work with. 10-16 for high mesh 310 or higher.   6-8 colors, 225 mesh. You will find that some elements may require slipping in a higher mesh for finer lot lighter coverage.

[DannyGruninger]

Not enough time to reply in detail right now but the 225/40 s thread your talking about is a great SIM process mesh. If my shop wasn't so hard on screens this would be one of my goto meshes for sim process. I know I have a few prints in the what's been printed lately thread where I ran the entire job on 225 mesh with exceptional results. But to answer your question I would suggest that mesh highly if your shop handles screens well. It will give you great results at 47 lpi on sim process with nice opaque coverage. If I had 225 s or 310s thread on the rack I'd start with the 225 first as I've held about the same detail on that as a std 305/34 mesh which has been a sim process mesh forever.

[Dottonedan]

To me, 45 Lpi is too big of a dot.  Can you do great sim process prints with 45?  Yes, no doubt. But to me, I think (so can most everybody else).  55 is considered a standard for most shops doing sim process. A high lpi  would be 60-65.  That's what I would be shooting for and using the s thread, I'd be trying to Lear how to make the 310 work every time.  Higher if they make an S thread higher than 310 yet.

[ScreenPrinter123]

Correct me if I've been misinformed but I thought you could hold all dots on mesh that is 4 times the lpi. So at 55 lpi, we're at 220, so a 225 s mesh should hold it all provided your exposures are "dialed in" right?  We can adjust the ink flow with speed, angle, pressure, and durometer squeegee greatly, so we can always change those settings too to increase or decrease ink opacity - so if the above is correct, wouldn't the 225s still be a perfect fit?  In fact, I'm reading how the LX 150 and 180 are supposed to be holding 45 and 55 lpi per murakami's website, so it leads me to believe the s mesh can probably hold 100% of the dots at more than 4 times the lpi so perhaps the 225 could hold up to 60-65 lpi?  Not sure. But even at 55 lpi, it seems it would easily hold and therefore making the 310s superfluous?  I can always add in a harder blade on the 225 and go more vertical with the squeegee and speed it up to reduce ink flow if it's squishing out too much - find it much harder to achieve the inverse on the 310S mesh if the opacity just isn't there from the get go though. 

[ScreenPrinter123]

P.S. - pretty sure the s mesh is available up to 330 at least.

[Dottonedan]

55 would be pushing it on the 225 (when trying to hold a full gradation to go as low as you can. That's why people like to drop it to 45-50 to assure they hold everything possible. The 55 pushes the 225 to its limits. You might be able matatically, but its close to that threshold of the mesh blocking the smaller dots. Thick emulsion, over exposure and inks/print methods make this range very touchy.

[ScreenPrinter123]

So basically you're saying Murakami needs to come out with a 260-40 that you can tighten to 30 newtons and it's the mesh to end all meshes? :-).  It seems to be too much of a jump anyway between the 225 and 310. Maybe I'm missing a mesh count offering???

[ScreenPrinter123]

So it looks like Murakami makes a 270-34 (T mesh) that has a 41% open area rating while the 225-40 (S mesh) has a 42% open area.  Does anyone have any experience with these 270-T meshes and how they'll compare and contrast to the s-mesh?  Seems to me if the open area is that close, would the ink be flowing through as easily too?  I've only used some unknown name brand of mesh (don't get me started on the level of frustration that accompanied passing ink through that mesh!) and murakami's s-mesh (which is a dream in comparison)...no idea how murakami's t-mesh functions, but since the open area is virtually the same, I wonder how different it is on press?  There's a big difference in open area, for instance, between the 150s vs 150t and the 180s vs. 180t, but not so between the 225s vs. 270t.  Any suggestions would be great.

FYI, it seems murakami goes all the way up to a 460 mesh in the s mesh... Would like to see someone printing a shirt with that!

[Rockers]

NBC do a 255-48

[ScreenPrinter123]

NBC?

[Rockers]

NBC is another Japanese mesh manufacturer. Virtually the same quality and specs as Murakami mesh. Dynamesh Inc. distributes NBC in the States. Should be cheaper then Murakami Mesh, at least it`s cheaper over here.

http://www.nbc-jp.com/eng/product/screen/luxex_sc_spec.pdf

[bimmridder]

Two thoughts. The "times 4 (or 4.5)" is a rule of thumb in avoiding moire I believe. And just a rule of thumb. Sometimes you actually have to test. And there is more than one mesh company that makes "S" thread mesh. It's been around decades.

[Dottonedan]

Hi Bimm.

The un matched or complimentary lpi screen angle is connected to moire. You get moire when having to screen angles collide that work against each other.

The mesh (interference) is a different beast often thought of as moire, but is related to the (rule of thumb) connection. This is math. the math determibes the proper (mesh that works well) and has to do wether the mesh threads will be blocking the small dots. That is not morie, but (mesh interference. The two are different beast to tackle. When the mesh nears (too low) those thick mesh threads block small dots causing (interference) and can show that saw toothed jagged halftone at the end of a fade.

Its very easy to mix works and have these terms confused with others. I still do myself sometimes.

There is still yet another term that is similar but I forget what it is at the moment.